Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#831

Post by account42 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:09 PM UTC

prmoustache wrote: post #770

grey_earthling wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And IMO this is where Firefox is getting worse. Firefox used to be much less user-hostile. Now it draws too much attention to itself, like it's trying to be a lifestyle brand. Using Firefox feels like walking through a busy shopping mall, and I worry that the folks making Firefox don't know any other way that life can be. Post-update pages (if they must exist in the first place) should look like: > You're using the l…

Did you actually took the time to setup firefox to your liking once? From the above post it looks like you didn't. Pocket is pretty much invisible, especially if you remove the button from the toolbar. The only time I see mentions of the mozilla VPN is when I go to the configuration of an existing container and I see the option to integrate it to mozilla VPN.

I have set up Firefox to my liking but UI reworks and new anti-features mean that I have to invest significant time for each update to just get things back to how I like them.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#832

Post by wyclif » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:17 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #408

selfhoster11 wrote: post #2

They should focus on saving Firefox. - Cut out all (or at the very least, most) initiatives that don't serve the goal of promoting Firefox's market share or sustainability going forward - Donate the major money drains that aren't Firefox to the Apache Foundation or another worthy custodian - Fire all inessential staff that don't want to work on Firefox. - Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not…

This set of policies would spell the end of Mozilla, and the end of Firefox unless the community (or another org) picked it up. Mozilla is mostly funded by search engine companies, the largest being Google, and any direct attempt to compete with Chrome would probably end a significant chunk of that funding. Like it or not, unless Mozilla does what Google sees as acceptable, Firefox can't continue. The only way to tur…

Mozilla is mostly funded by search engine companies, the largest being Google

Not only that, but this creates perverse incentives for Mozilla. Google funds Mozilla to avoid charges of monopoly, and that disincentives Mozilla to compete with Google and make Firefox a competitive browser to Chromium.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#833

Post by bryanrasmussen » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:17 PM UTC

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #176

paxys wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a regular end user why do I care about what Mozilla's mission is? Apple makes shiny devices, Google gives me great free services, and in return I use their (perfectly great) browsers. What is one single reason to use Firefox? As long as these large companies continue to put effort into their browsers (which Microsoft didn't do with IE), users are simply never going to switch, the same way no one is using desktop L…

>What is one single reason to use Firefox? I want to use a browser that does not sabotage my ability to make it work how I want in order to protect the main business of its parent corporation. Not a snazzy headline I know.

I actually don't use the direct Firefox branch anymore, although my wife and daughter have it on their computers so it is often available to me. I tend to use Firefox Developer branch so a lot of these complaints people are seeing I haven't experienced. (haven't experienced in the normal Firefox on other computers either so sort of weird, maybe I set up a don't bother me with changes profile a long time ago and I just forgot)

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#834

Post by grey_earthling » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:18 PM UTC

mhitza wrote: post #798

grey_earthling wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly, Fedora doesn't support doing updates while the system is running (or at least they don't recommend it). An alternative that might be smoother in this regard: use a flatpak version of Firefox instead. (Firefox is in Fedora's flatpak repo, and on Flathub.) GNOME Software updates flatpak apps in the background, and you just get the new version the next time you open the app.

Not sure from which perspective your comment comes from. dnf update or dnfdragora updates (if you prefer a GUI) are all done while the system is running. Sure, distribution upgrades nowadays are just like Windows update requiring a system reboot and a black screen with a useless progress bar to stare at (that's also a pretty annoying relatively recent addition). GNOME is not my cup of tea. And until flatpak delivers…

> Not sure from which perspective your comment comes from. dnf update or dnfdragora updates (if you prefer a GUI) are all done while the system is running.

Fedora doesn't recommend doing updates that way :) See https://fedoramagazine.org/offline-updates-and-fedora-35/

> Sure, distribution upgrades nowadays are just like Windows update requiring a system reboot and a black screen with a useless progress bar to stare at (that's also a pretty annoying relatively recent addition).

Silverblue doesn't have a black screen with a progress bar — it just boots straight into the updated version. I assume Kinoite (like Silverblue but with Plasma instead of GNOME) is the same.

> And until flatpak delivers tangible finegrained software sandboxing (at least Android level sandboxing)

Flatseal may provide what you want here: https://github.com/tchx84/Flatseal

> I'm not really interested in using it for software that's already packaged in the dnf repositories.

Fair enough. I mentioned it because it removes this problem:

> every time I update Firefox in my OS, and it won't allow me to spawn new tabs until I restart Firefox.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#835

Post by simondotau » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:19 PM UTC

sfink wrote: post #726

simondotau wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny, because I've had the same experience as you—but in the opposite direction. In my experience, Chrome has problems with memory, performance, rendering and battery drainage. Every now and then I try to use Chrome (or a derivative) as secondary browser and I give up because it has noticeably higher latency for simple web page loads, and more likely to suffer irritating repaint flashes.

(I work for Mozilla, but don't speak for them.) You're both right. It's a common story -- people use browser A, start noticing a variety of problems, switch to browser B and everything is so much better. After a while, they start noticing a variety of problems, switch to browser A, and once again everything is so much better. Those people are not being stupid, that is their real experience. Sometimes the problem is i…

For what it's worth I haven't had an issue with Firefox for at least five years. And in the entire history of using Firefox I've never had a problem that was solved by a profile reset—though that might be because I'm a technically savvy user who can troubleshoot with relative ease.

Any time I've tried switching away it's more to see if I'm missing out on something... and it turns out I'm not.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#836

Post by grey_earthling » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:23 PM UTC

prmoustache wrote: post #770

grey_earthling wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And IMO this is where Firefox is getting worse. Firefox used to be much less user-hostile. Now it draws too much attention to itself, like it's trying to be a lifestyle brand. Using Firefox feels like walking through a busy shopping mall, and I worry that the folks making Firefox don't know any other way that life can be. Post-update pages (if they must exist in the first place) should look like: > You're using the l…

Did you actually took the time to setup firefox to your liking once? From the above post it looks like you didn't. Pocket is pretty much invisible, especially if you remove the button from the toolbar. The only time I see mentions of the mozilla VPN is when I go to the configuration of an existing container and I see the option to integrate it to mozilla VPN.

> Did you actually took the time to setup firefox to your liking once?

Yes. I use Firefox pretty much exclusively.

I'm saying that the first-run experience, and the amount of setting up it takes to make Firefox less intrusive, illustrate that Firefox is not as focused on being a useful tool as I would like.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#837

Post by grey_earthling » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:25 PM UTC

account42 wrote: post #831

prmoustache wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually took the time to setup firefox to your liking once? From the above post it looks like you didn't. Pocket is pretty much invisible, especially if you remove the button from the toolbar. The only time I see mentions of the mozilla VPN is when I go to the configuration of an existing container and I see the option to integrate it to mozilla VPN.

I have set up Firefox to my liking but UI reworks and new anti-features mean that I have to invest significant time for each update to just get things back to how I like them.

I agree. More than this, it's not just “I don't like change and I have to tweak Firefox to my liking”; it's “I don't trust that Mozilla is acting in my interests; I expect that any changes are to my detriment”.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#838

Post by hoseja » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:32 PM UTC

BossingAround wrote: post #331

sebmellen wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arrogance is hard to believe. > In 2018 she received a total of $2,458,350 in compensation from Mozilla, which represents a 400% payrise since 2008. On the same period, Firefox marketshare was down 85%. When asked about her salary she stated "I learned that my pay was about an 80% discount to market. Meaning that competitive roles elsewhere were paying about 5 times as much. That's too big a discount to ask peopl…

I don't think this has anything to do with arrogance, this is simply the market value speaking. Ginni Rometty did something similar with IBM; while being a terrible CEO ("IBM was the worst-performing large-cap tech stock during Rometty's tenure, dropping 24%" [1]), she got a whopping $20M per year [2] during her first 7 years of being a CEO, and she got $20M golden parachute [3] upon leaving the shell of an IBM. This…

What "CEO"? Does every mom-and-pop shop get a "CEO" with $3M compensation? Does every startup? I don't think Mozilla leadership deserves to be placed among big tech executives with standardized pay.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#839

Post by mda » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:34 PM UTC

camjohnson26 wrote: post #303

paxys wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are answering the question "how can Mozilla make more money", but that wasn't what was asked. Mozilla as a whole is profitable already, and revenues have been growing close to 100% year over year. As a company they are in great health. Except that's not what users care about when picking a browser. Google has too much money, tech, marketing and too big an existing user and device base to make any kind of direct c…

I know many people who used to use Firefox and moved on to Brave. Brave has a mission that is easier to get behind and till it’s unclear what Firefox is trying to be.

Brave's mission is to make money by any means necessary. Any other fluff is bs.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#840

Post by account42 » Tue, Feb 15, 2022, 12:41 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #325

bradyo wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With enough investment, Firefox could also innovate and introduce features that aren't in Chrome or Safari to actually win users back

The problem with building a web browser is that if you introduce too many new features then you are breaking with web standards. The most you can do is add some user conveniences like sync, themes and extensions, but those don't go far enough to make enough users consider switching. A browser can, by definition, never have a "killer app".

There is so much more a browser can add beyond just rendering websites "correctly" - and even that does not mean always rendering them the way the designer wants. Just a few things that could win over power users:

- Better tab organization. Vertical, tree-style tabs are an improvement possible with extensions, but surely we can do even better, especially if with direct support from the browser.

- Better bookmarking. All bookmarks should take a snapshot of the website in case it disappears or changes and should have fast full-text search. And those are only the obvious parts that are missing.

- Integrated ad-blocking and user scripts/styles to enhance and fix user-hostile websites. Make it easy to share these with non-technical users. Really anything that puts the user in control. This includes the Browser UI too - firefox has been going backwards con customizability.

- Ability to keep up with websites directly through the browser. Aka bring back RSS support and actually make it useful.

- Anything that works against the centralization of the web. Allow users to comment and share websites with their friends or community right from the browser in a way that is resistant to censorship.

And this is just what I could think of right away.