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Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#191
Restore "User Customizable" as a top-level priority. I came to FF initially over 15 years ago because add-ons could change almost anything including fundamental appearance and workflow. When changing to the new, far more limited add-on infrastructure ~5 yrs ago, Mozilla promised that new APIs would be added to re-enable hugely popular add-ons like Tab Mix Plus yet this and other add-ons users relied on still remain impossible to implement.

This "Have It Your Way" capability would be a profound differentiator and user value proposition to stand out from the sameness of Chrome and Safari. I still use FF but to make it usable I have to install my own UserChrome.css and User.js which isn't easy for non-tech people. On top of that I regularly have to go "fix" new UI behaviors that Mozilla's designers keep shoveling into the UX in a constant game of Whack-a-Mole.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#192
It's interesting, often prompted by Mozilla doing something particularly silly I try out the competition and every time I go back to Firefox utterly unimpressed by the supposedly better Chromium based browsers out there. Honestly I don't see what people like so much about them.

Most recently when they came out with Colorways I decided to give Vivaldi a shot for the first time in a few years, since it has that easy custom color theming without a pointless time horizon. First problem I ran into was that the built-in ad blocker breaks YouTube. Not a great first impression, but hey you can just disable it and install uBO. But I quickly came to miss the flexibility of Firefox's interface. On the surface Vivaldi is very customizable, but you quickly run into a wall when wanting to go outside what they've built. For example, you can put the tab bar anywhere, but you can't have it in multiple places or pretty it up beyond changing the colors. Firefox on the other hand has enough tab management addons for any taste, plus it supports custom CSS within the addons themselves and at the browser level.

The alternative browser I've been most impressed with is actually Edge, but I can't tolerate it constantly shoving features I don't want in my face or the mandatory telemetry.

So to answer the question, I would save Firefox by breaking the mobile browser duopoly. Desktop Firefox is already obviously better than Chrome and Edge, even in the basic experience with no addons, but people just use Chrome for some reason. I think it comes down to habit, an over-reliance on Google Apps that work better with Chrome's tight integration, and familiarity due to Chrome being the only serious browser on Android. And on iOS the situation seems to be even worse: non-Safari browsers are forced to use Safari's engine anyway, and all of them offer a noticeably worse UX than Safari so why bother. Of Firefox's problems, losing on mobile is the easiest to fix, not that it's super easy. Mozilla "just" needs to focus creative resources on building a compelling alternative browser on Android and a functional one on iOS. That would go a long way toward bringing users back.

Another thing that might help is for Mozilla to make a clear (down to earth, jargon-free) statement of its values and goals as a nonprofit. I think a lot of the criticism Firefox gets in tech circles isn't exactly sincere, because many people have switched away from Firefox due to actual or perceived political differences but don't want to come out and say that, so they contrive or exaggerate some UX or privacy issue. If Mozilla's leadership would speak openly about these issues it might make those detractors a little more comfortable saying something like "I don't use Firefox because the causes they support go against my political convictions", rather than the current situation where they might be reluctant to say that and start a likely pointless argument over whether Mozilla supports a certain cause or not.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#193

They should focus on saving Firefox. - Cut out all (or at the very least, most) initiatives that don't serve the goal of promoting Firefox's market share or sustainability going forward - Donate the major money drains that aren't Firefox to the Apache Foundation or another worthy custodian - Fire all inessential staff that don't want to work on Firefox. - Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not…

>> We as a community, cannot afford to let Firefox languish until the only browsers in the world are Chromium derivatives. The diversity of truly independent browser engines is far too important to give up without a fight. There are a lot of people oh HN who agree with that but then use a different browser for whatever reason. I feel like these people are being very hypocritical and should use what they want to succe…

> Firefox is very usable and increasing its market share starts with you. Or to use another cliche - be the change you wish to see.

I use Firefox despite long standing bugs. Somehow a browser that aggressively throttles background tabs is still able to leak memory to background tabs. For the longest time Firefox messed with my wireless headset, they finally added proper support for web audio APIs and things are better now.

CPU usage is still all over the place. Some inactive tab will cause FF to spin CPU usage up to 100%.

Firefox still leaks resources, I can shut down all tabs and still have the media playback process using up tons of CPU and RAM.

WebGL performance is worse than Chrome.

TBF it has been getting steadily better over the last year, I have noticed a marked improvement. I'd say a year or so ago it was noticeably bad on a regular basis, now it is an occasional annoyance. But it should never have gotten that bad.

More to the point of the question, Google spent a LONG time pushing Chrome, hard. They paid lots of # to bundle it with app updates years ago. Visiting Google properties causes banner ads "Download Chrome!" to appear. A few years back YouTube videos would occasionally just stop working in Firefox.

And now days with Node development, well, Node developer tools are built into Chrome. React developer tools run in Chrome.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#194
I don't care that its losing marketshare as long as its still used and supported, just like how I don't really care that most computer users aren't using the command line anymore. The age of the average user being choosy about their web browser is over, and the hand wringing about market share is not important. Users either use the browser that ships with their OS (safari, the limited people on edge), or they download chrome because youtube and gsuite have been giving them banner ads to download chrome for a decade and that's where their autofill passwords are saved.

Instead, mozilla should really lean in on catering to the techie who is going to come to the conclusion to use firefox no matter what mozilla really does anyhow, just from the fact that its not google and you can do more with privacy oriented extensions. It's always frusterating when mozilla does things they really don't have to do, like break certain CSS configs with the move to proton for no reason other than change is good I guess (like, why pull another python 2/3-esque debacle when you don't really have to and could just support legacy syntax?), or taking out niceties like the built in RSS reader, which I found handy to confirm a feed looked OK before throwing it into my actual RSS reader. There are other issues too. Maybe I'm not doing it right in firefox, but I have to go into chrome to find the correct CSS selectors to use in a given webpage for javascripting.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#195

I want to be done with Firefox so badly. I just don't want to go to Google. There's this really obnoxious issue where search in the address bar has taken a complete dive recently. For example, if I want to go to reddit.com/r/videos and it's a page I go to often, I can't just type "videos" because the suggestions that come up are links to threads I've visited recently. None of the suggestions are to reddit.com/r/video…

you can bookmark it and tag it with "videos". typing it on the address bar will bring it as suggestion I think.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#196

Everybody is moving to mobile and almost nobody uses Firefox on mobile. However, Firefox mobile does support extensions. Is that something that could emphasized? However, Firefox speed on mobile is much slower than Chrome. That should probably be improved upon. For desktop there's not much of a distinguishing factor left. Chrome is good enough. I like Firefox for the privacy, but is that enough of a distinguishing fa…

I'm a FF fanboy but I have moved to Vivaldi for mobile. Two issues persist for me on FF mobile, even the nightly version: * Scroll lag/tearing on many websites which doesn't occur with Chromium engine * Reloading of tabs when I return to them, vs. leaving them as-is until I request a reload. This is abominable behavior. So I installed Vivaldi and then blocked the domain on my pi-hole to prevent the daily checkins the…

FF implements what they call 'smart sizing' on Android. The basic principle is the larger the amount of disk space available (on Android they use disk caching) the larger the cache size. You can inspect this dynamically on your device in 'about:cache'.

I am violently critical of FF's current direction but to be fair to FF the reloading of tabs is a compromise to deal with how little disk space there usually is on Android (because the OS itself hogs large chunks of it in most Android devices).

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#197
Never understood this convo about Firefox dying or all the complaints. I love Firefox, been using it since 2005 or so. Firebug was awesome back in the day and FF Developer Edition w/ all its developer tools is still great. Only annoying thing they've done recently is rename/re-sort a bunch of menu options that undid years of muscle memory.

Someone explain to me why I would switch to Chrome? If anything I'd switch to Edge before Chrome.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#198
post #161

I actually have wondered about this. Given the changes in the way tracking protection has been done, have there been any actual studies/analyses that show Firefox is losing marketshare? If it's all based on ad companies and server-side detection, I'm unclear that you could actually correctly make the claim. If anyone has links I'd be interested in reading; I'm sure there are fingerprinting techniques, but ones that r…

I have the same question as you. I will add that it is possible Chrome’s market share might be partly artificial since Firefox might be using Chrome’s User Agent string so that websites “compatible with Chrome only” remain usable.

I don't have hard data to back it up but I don't think Firefox is spoofing UA for compat, at least not on a massive scale.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> We as a community, cannot afford to let Firefox languish until the only browsers in the world are Chromium derivatives. The diversity of truly independent browser engines is far too important to give up without a fight. There are a lot of people oh HN who agree with that but then use a different browser for whatever reason. I feel like these people are being very hypocritical and should use what they want to succe…

Recently switched to Linux and only installed Firefox. When you force yourself to use it, it's doable. I think only once in the last 6 months did a website not work (my dumb HOA website). Other than that, it's more than sufficient. It crashes sometimes but if that's the price for not having coercive software controlling my life, so be it.

Hmm, interesting, because I don't force myself to use Firefox. I use it because it's just plain better than Chrome, in that I can configure it just the way I want.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#200

This is my personal opinion only, so take it with a grain of salt. ---- Mozilla can't save Firefox. It's not that Firefox can't be saved, but rather that Mozilla as an organization is not capable of doing so. My take is this - Despite a history of being relatively privacy friendly, the vast majority of funding for the organization comes directly from Google (To the tune of ~90% of their total funding, straight from G…

The unsaid part is that Google keeps Firefox alive so that they are not hit by anti-trust over in-browser search. That's why FF will always trail Chrome, its the designated loser. If it weren't for anti-trust, Google would have bought out Mozilla years ago.
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