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Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about perception. The browser's job is to display webpages and otherwise get out of the user's way - Firefox constantly fails at that, much more than a lot of paid, proprietary software even.

Really? I've never had that happen and I've been using Firefox for 2 decades. Occasionally I've had a grumble about it not being the latest version, but that didn't stop me. Short of the removal of flash I can't think of anything you could be referring to, so perhaps rather than exaggerating some actual concrete examples would be good.

Also been using FF for 2 decades, but can corroborate the experience you cannot.

I have seen all those things he complained about. Diversity initiatives, new features, etc. For me it appears as a new tab on restart that I have to close, and it does feel like it's every single time I update, and sometimes between updates.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently switched to Linux and only installed Firefox. When you force yourself to use it, it's doable. I think only once in the last 6 months did a website not work (my dumb HOA website). Other than that, it's more than sufficient. It crashes sometimes but if that's the price for not having coercive software controlling my life, so be it.

Not claiming, that your experience isn't true, but: Firefox hasn't crashed for me in years! And I am a real tab hoarder. 400 tabs and more are not so uncommon for me. Then again I don't allow arbitrary websites to run all sorts of shit scripts. It might or might not be your hardware, or it might be the websites you visit.

Yeah, I think there are measures I could take to help the situation but it's a little low on my priority queue at the moment. The crashes are rare and not really a big issue for me.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can we just eat the execs? on a more serious note, what if mozilla fires ALL execs? will it just crumble under its own weight or will that "industry linked remuneration" be replaced with more money for actual developers who get things done and are not in for the quick buck like address bar ads?

I'm hoping for the latter. Or if not, the that if the Firefox collapsed, it would re-emerge in some fashion as a grassroots community project with non-Mozilla governance.

You know… you don't have to wait for the company to collapse.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#174
post #10

They should focus on saving Firefox. - Cut out all (or at the very least, most) initiatives that don't serve the goal of promoting Firefox's market share or sustainability going forward - Donate the major money drains that aren't Firefox to the Apache Foundation or another worthy custodian - Fire all inessential staff that don't want to work on Firefox. - Get a CEO/upper management that are in it for the passion, not…

This. However, I think they need to answer the question, why should Firefox exist? If there is no compelling reason, well, there you go. If there is, double down on that make that reason shine. They have wasted so much money on the wrong things, IMO.

If Firefox dies, the open web dies. It's that simple. For the open web to remain open, there needs to be at least one more truly independent source of authority regarding how a rendering engine should work. Everyone else has thrown in the towel and abdicated that authority to Google by embedding Blink.

Google is either actively malicious to the open web, or doesn't care about it other than as something they can strip-mine as a revenue source. They sufficiently diversified into mobile and Android that the death of the open web would be but a blip to them.

IMO, Firefox should consciously be that alternate source of authority. How they accomplish that organisationally is irrelevant, what is relevant that their browser as a whole is competitive and focused enough that it stops haemorrhaging market share, and can start to slowly rebuild it as people look for a way out of Google's ecosystem.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#175
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a regular end user why do I care about what Mozilla's mission is? Apple makes shiny devices, Google gives me great free services, and in return I use their (perfectly great) browsers. What is one single reason to use Firefox? As long as these large companies continue to put effort into their browsers (which Microsoft didn't do with IE), users are simply never going to switch, the same way no one is using desktop L…

"What is one single reason to use Firefox?" Better ad blocking.

Is it better than Chrome + uBlock Origin/Privacy Badger/Ghostery?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#176
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subtitle of the question was "What would you do if you were in charge of Mozilla? How would you save Firefox?" My answer is an attempt at addressing these two questions. My goal wasn't to make Mozilla more profitable, but to ensure that it's focused on what should be its core mission, rather than the mire of sideshows that they engage in at the moment. Also, I don't care how Mozilla the amorphous blob of a corpor…

As a regular end user why do I care about what Mozilla's mission is? Apple makes shiny devices, Google gives me great free services, and in return I use their (perfectly great) browsers. What is one single reason to use Firefox? As long as these large companies continue to put effort into their browsers (which Microsoft didn't do with IE), users are simply never going to switch, the same way no one is using desktop L…

>What is one single reason to use Firefox?

I want to use a browser that does not sabotage my ability to make it work how I want in order to protect the main business of its parent corporation.

Not a snazzy headline I know.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#177
post #105
post #76

I left because of woke messaging from their CEO. https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat...

What's wrong with this message? Are you against ads revealing who's paying for them and who's targeted? Against transparency of algorithms? What exactly is the issue? I don't see any reason to leave after reading this.

To me, I think it's impossible to evaluate those statements in a vacuum and not consider the obvious second-order effects that result from it. Advertising transparency is of course a good thing, but what happens in a culture where perfect transparency exists and one side is repeatedly targeted by activists in Tech, Media, and Finance for deplatforming? Suddenly every advertiser that goes against a narrative can be targeted for elimination. What sounds like a bright and positive message is suddenly a tool for personally going after your political enemies and probably creates even more divisiveness and conflict.

There's a lot wrong with what she said, but especially her opinion that tools should amplify "factual voices" by default. There is no central source of accurate human knowledge to even attempt to do this with and we know that what's considered true and accurate can change. This alone is a disgusting and disqualifying opinion and anybody who espouses this viewpoint should be considered a propagandist and tyrant in waiting and certainly unable to head an organization dedicated to an open Internet.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#178
#1, Listen to the users, even if it makes the developers lives harder and the code base uglier. (although the firefox build system is just sad, and is a symptom of the entire project, "make" should actually build a working browser)

Stop fsking with the UI and using creative non native looking stuff just to be cool like chrome, and instead focus on making the rendering/JS/developer tools engine best in class. Along with, stop breaking shit. Hiding shit in about:config and then silently removing the option doesn't make users happy, if they spent the time to figure out how to disable search in the address bar because they are tired of accidentally telling google/etc where they are browsing than actually honor that setting, or better yet, give them that option in the config UI rather than pretending they are all idiots and don't understand how computers work.

There are too many chrome only web sites, so make the developers happy with tools that make their jobs easier. About:memory is better these days, but its still a far cry from what it could be, and AFAIK its still doesn't have something similar for CPU or networking outside of the network and cpu tracing functions in the developer tools. I want to be able to manage my browser with similar functionality to my OS (aka what tab is sending/reading all this data, then drill into what/where its sending it along with better whitelist/blacklist functionality/etc)

Then for users, you will gain their appreciation if it feels faster than chrome, which far to often is still false (despite it too getting better). And yes, for tabs, menus and the like using the native widgets not only will make people happier when they change their system color schemes and firefox isn't doing its own thing, but the system components are frequently far far faster to render than firefox's. And yes, sometimes the code to have multiple UI toolkits is ugly, as is the code to support optimizing some JS path, deal with it, thats the job.

I could go on, but others have said some of my other points.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they need to answer the question, why should Firefox exist? If there is no compelling reason, well, there you go. If there is, double down on that make that reason shine. Unfortunately, that reason (browser engine diversity)is compelling to people who understand the situation, but not general consumers - and it's impossible to make general consumers care, unless maybe Firefox went for an edgy "rebel against the man"…

I feel like I understand the situation but I'm doubtful that browser engine diversity is compelling. It seems like duplicate effort. As long as Chromium accepts pull requests, what's the problem with browser monoculture? (In case it's not clear, I'm asking in earnest. I'm not trolling.) - - - - edit: Okay, pull requests alone are not enough, but the objections y'all are raising seem like they could all be answered by…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why is Firefox losing marketshare and how would you save it?

#180
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What is one single reason to use Firefox?" Better ad blocking.

Is it better than Chrome + uBlock Origin/Privacy Badger/Ghostery?

Yes, because Firefox allows uBlock on Android. Browsing the mobile web with ad-block is such a huge quality improvement.
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