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Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

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Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#51
post #25

Hacking is one thing. I understand the technical thrill. But blackmail and fraud? That's a human-to-human interaction, not human-to-machine. Once a person cross that line where you are harming another person at that level, there is no going back.

With blackmail and fraud convictions (and a 3-year prison sentence behind you), I would hope that nobody would give you a job with access to systems that enable you to get at personal information or money. That's their business, of course; but they'd presumably be exposed to an action for negligence if something went wrong as a result of them employing someone with that record. Blackmail and fraud are both offences t…

> presumably be exposed to an action for negligence if something went wrong as a result of them employing someone with that record.

That's just the type of bullshit that makes pizza restaurants not wanting to have a person with a criminal record anywhere in the building. It's a form of vigilante punishment that continues to for the life of a felon, way past the point where their debt to society has been supposedly paid.

Employers should be banned to ask or process such information. "Is currently wanted or on parole" - legitimate question, "was ever convicted" - No, you have no right to know that, except very limited cases defined by law: working with children and the vulnerable, large sums of cash, working in the financial sector etc.

Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“As long as you're open about your past and convictions” 100% this. We had someone who hid that he was previously gone to prison for robbing banks. He used his dad’s SSN and slipped through the cracks. He was terminated immediately when a girl who was mad at him called our company to let us know to get back at him. You can’t know for sure if people will look past your history, but I can guarantee you don’t want to hi…

Sounds like place he was at accepted him just fine until dumb bitch ratted him out for something that happened outside of work. Dude got a good run at least. Not lying about convictions sounds great from the pious ivory tower or from seasoned professionals who may have enough experience that others are able to look beyond their past. Dude already did his time, in my book the conviction doesn't exist anymore. My hones…

I see your point, and I'm in favor of inclusion in the workplace, but it's not all black and white.

Would you allow a convicted sexual offender who did his time in jail take care of your child in a day care facility to which he got employed and didn't disclose his past conviction?

Things need to be put into perspective, and evaluated carefully.

With that said I don't think immediate termination was the right decision to make in that situation the parent comment described. Inclusion requires consideration and empathy, the company didn't demonstrate that.

Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#53
You need to shift your attitude towards the job search:

1) You're clearly very talented, the record you describe speaks for itself.

2) Use your past to your advantage. Larger more corporate companies might be afraid to employ someone like you (_might_!) but there are tonnes of startups that could see your record as an advantage. It's demonstrated proof of your abilities!

Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“As long as you're open about your past and convictions” 100% this. We had someone who hid that he was previously gone to prison for robbing banks. He used his dad’s SSN and slipped through the cracks. He was terminated immediately when a girl who was mad at him called our company to let us know to get back at him. You can’t know for sure if people will look past your history, but I can guarantee you don’t want to hi…

Sounds like place he was at accepted him just fine until dumb bitch ratted him out for something that happened outside of work. Dude got a good run at least. Not lying about convictions sounds great from the pious ivory tower or from seasoned professionals who may have enough experience that others are able to look beyond their past. Dude already did his time, in my book the conviction doesn't exist anymore. My hones…

> Not lying about convictions sounds great from the pious ivory tower or from seasoned professionals who may have enough experience that others are able to look beyond their past.

Sadly--and I do mean this, I agree with your sentiment--what we believe and what is required by an organization in a sensitive industry (finance, education, defense) are different things. For example, if you want to operate as a public company in finance with industry-standard certifications, you must perform background checks and reject candidates with a criminal history involving financial crimes.

Schools and other educational institutions likewise are require to reject candidates with a criminal record that includes charges of violent crime, sexual offenses, or similar.

Lying about charges that aren't relevant to the filtering criteria will be noticed in such industries and be a big red flag to any HR rep or hiring manager reviewing an application. This also shields you from a situation where some other employee learns and disseminates unflattering information--if one's manager and HR has cleared that info, it's nobody else's business and you have avenues and support available to you to prevent discrimination due to a criminal history.

Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#55
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like place he was at accepted him just fine until dumb bitch ratted him out for something that happened outside of work. Dude got a good run at least. Not lying about convictions sounds great from the pious ivory tower or from seasoned professionals who may have enough experience that others are able to look beyond their past. Dude already did his time, in my book the conviction doesn't exist anymore. My hones…

I see your point, and I'm in favor of inclusion in the workplace, but it's not all black and white. Would you allow a convicted sexual offender who did his time in jail take care of your child in a day care facility to which he got employed and didn't disclose his past conviction? Things need to be put into perspective, and evaluated carefully. With that said I don't think immediate termination was the right decision…

I've not run a BG check on anyone who takes care of my kids. Sometimes we also hire babysitters to come take care of my child, I don't run BG check either.

I probably wouldn't like it if I found out they raped a (actual, not like statutory w/ a lying 17 y/o with fake ID like happened to Cody Wilson) child, because I believe the appropriate solution for that is the death penalty, and thus I don't see them as having completed their sentence. But if someone is out in society, I treat them based on the way I have observed them to treat myself and others, rather than what the government says. A lot of sex offenses are total BS such as someone urinated in public (which is socially acceptable in many places of the world).

Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#56
I bet there's lots of companies that would hire you, based on this particular HN thread alone. Here's what could be worth doing, and wouldn't take much time at all:

1. put together a one-page website, on a domain like firstnamelastname.com 2. Add a link to this page 3. Put a link to your website in your email signature

Done! Now everyone you ever email, if they want to know more about you, will know that you're _deeply_ proficient in certain domains, and it'll be up to them to decide that you might be a good fit.

Since you've got this particular charge against you, and the US makes it nearly impossible for people who have run afoul of the state to legally be paid, but you _might_ be able to open up a Stripe account, and create a "payment link" (https://stripe.com/payments/payment-links) for a one-off "roadmapping sessions" (https://doubleyourfreelancing.com/roadmapping/) where a company/team pays you $10,000 and you'll visit them (virtually or in person) for a day or two to talk about their thorniest security problem.

"The system" wants you to apply to (and be hired into) an entry-level position, but that would be a giant waste of your time and everyone else's.

I wrote this article for eager bootcamp grads, looking for their first job. You're not a bootcamp grad, but it _might_ be helpful to you: https://josh.works/remote-job-resources

Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#57
post #6

Apply for everything. Let other people say no for you. If people find out about your past be 100% straight with them, but you don't need to be the one to bring it up. Work your hardest to provide value, ask for feedback and correct where necessary. You'll be fine. There's a lot of work in cybersecurity these days. Also, you should list the country you're in. Who knows, someone on HN could reach out with an opportunit…

>you don't need to be the one to bring it up

Yes, you do. I don't know about other countries, but everywhere in the US runs a background check. You will get a reasonable "no" rate, but telling people your situation is very much better than looking like you were hiding it when they eventually find out.

OP probably would have the most success with a pen-testing firm or similar.

Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#58
I've hired quite a few security folks in my time (some with criminal convictions) but my answer is an unhelpful one: it depends.

If you have a criminal conviction it's unlikely you'll get through the screening process with a regulated business (like banking, insurance, pharma etc) due to some 'out of the hiring managers hands' constraints those industries have. I've seen exceptions to this in the past, where a senior manager strongly advocated for the exception, but it's _very_ rare.

I've worked with several security people with criminal convictions in the past at non-regulated, FAANG and FAANG-like tech companies. They also usually have policies in place to prevent hires with criminal convictions, but the exception process there is easier, particularly in security teams where these convictions are more likely to occur in strong candidates.

The biggest concentration of folks with backgrounds like yours have been at security consultancies, in my experience. Combined with the experience you mentioned with bounties, that would be the place I'd spend most time looking. You might still get rejected from some, for example those with customers that require criminal background checks for employees or security clearance you couldn't get, but there are still quite a large percentage where you could find work. Personally, I've had conversations with external consultancies who say things like "I know you require criminal records checks on all our employees, which we're happy to do, but I want you know >50% of my team will fail them".

A couple of other things:

- No matter where you work, with your background there might be some kind of 'restriction' placed on what you work on and/or how you work (e.g. can't work on project Type X or must work from Office Y). If you do get through a process, ask about this before joining, as it might have an impact on how much you'd enjoy the role.

- Be open about your background. You sound like you would do that anyway, but the more open you are the better, you don't want this to be a surprise to people. What you're looking for is a strong advocate on the hiring team, so building trusting relationships with people will be important.

Don't be too down on yourself, you might have made some bad decisions, but you sound like a talented professional. The criminal justice system exists for people to serve their punishment and then move on with their lives. There are companies that will be delighted to hire you because of your skills. Your road may be a little tougher than for others, but that doesn't mean you can't end up professionally happy, fulfilled and well compensated.

Re: Ask HN: Recent computer hacking convictions and employability?

#59
post #6

Apply for everything. Let other people say no for you. If people find out about your past be 100% straight with them, but you don't need to be the one to bring it up. Work your hardest to provide value, ask for feedback and correct where necessary. You'll be fine. There's a lot of work in cybersecurity these days. Also, you should list the country you're in. Who knows, someone on HN could reach out with an opportunit…

>you don't need to be the one to bring it up Yes, you do. I don't know about other countries, but everywhere in the US runs a background check. You will get a reasonable "no" rate, but telling people your situation is very much better than looking like you were hiding it when they eventually find out. OP probably would have the most success with a pen-testing firm or similar.

Nope. The only background checks I've ever had working for Americans was law enforcement / intelligence agency software (I was working for a Canadian company and they sold to them) and a contract for the Nasdaq.

Other than that, it's just been straight skills and reputation. Even if it did come up he could always say that he assumed they would ask for a background check if they cared about this type of thing. Just let the man get some work and move on with his life.

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