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Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

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Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#241

Post by kube-system »

artemonster wrote: post #229
brnaftr361 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think that's a pretty interesting point. It's a weird move to sweep under the rug. I guess you could argue that having a BMW is a choice, and it has associated stereotypes, which we can infer is sort of like joining a club. race/gender are probabilistic and unalterable, one doesn't necessarily elect to inherit the stereotypes associated with race/gender. You're essentially being delegated expectations that may o…

I am unsure whether the (im)mutability of a qualifier plays a role. For example, religion is a choice, but making generalized derogatory statements about certain religious groups is not okay either. You can try it with the pattern of "civilized" user: """Everywhere you go, there will be _men hitting their wivers_. Disproportionately they will be ..." and say sorry afterwards. You will be making a statistically correc…

Religion is a choice in the same way citizenship is a choice. Sometimes it is a choice, often you’re born into it, and you often have to meet qualifications to change it, and some of those may be impossible to meet. And your social environment may impose some significant expectations on you.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#242

Post by indymike »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #123
jedberg wrote: post #64

This last summer/fall really put things in perspective for me. We did a major outdoor renovation at our house, which involved landscapers, plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. Every day these guys would show up at 8am and long sleeves and jeans and hard hats, work super hard, pee in a port-a-potty, and be exhausted by the end of the day. They worked out in the 100 degree heat as well as the rain as the job got nea…

Your contractor, on the other hand, may well have got a few rounds of golf in during the day time. A neighbor owns a painting company. He goes around the various job sites in the morning, sees that everyone has their marching orders for the day, returns in the afternoon to check in on the progress. In between the morning and afternoon though? He does what he pleases. I believe he started the company with a buddy, the…

> A neighbor owns a painting company. He goes around the various job sites in the morning, sees that everyone has their marching orders for the day, returns in the afternoon to check in on the progress. In between the morning and afternoon though? He does what he pleases.

It's no different in Tech. What is hard about being a developer is that you are building. The analogy between your friend who owns and manages a painting company, isn't really that far off. As long as your are primarily responsible for getting the work done... well, the expectation will be closed tickets, shipped features.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#243

Post by grogenaut »

artemonster wrote: post #71
civilized wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I like how in our progressive society it is absolutely frowned upon to invoke any association between observable societal statistics and, say, race/gender, but its okay to bash BMW/audi drivers. So, user civilized, why is it okay for you to generalize? And why exactly you were sorry? (I am aware that this is a tangent discussion to the original post, but it may be an interesting one)

I can afford a BMW, I've chosen not to buy one. In 08, I technically bought one in a Mini. But it was better MPG (very good for the time), fun, and cute. My buddy has a fast BMW, 2x the price. He got real mad when he drove the mini when he realized that the grand tour guys are right, hot hatches are pretty fun. He was blowing through $1500 in tires every year or so as well. I told him he got the bmw cause he's a dbag and a defense lawyer. He agreed that he is a dbag and he needed to show off as a lawyer. Every one of my friends who has a BMW would agree they care about appearences and are a bit of a dbag, I have about 10 from college/highschool/the neighborhood. So I'd be making fun of myself or my friends.

Personally I want multiple fun to drive vehicles. But I'd also rather have a CNC mill sharing space a motorcycle in the garage instead of a car I'm wiping with a diaper for the same price.

It's also quite common and a source of fun in many communities to make fun of the other brand. Many of these jokes are great at summarizing why people buy a thing. Ford vs Chevy. It can also get bit annoying and detract from what would otherwise be a useful conversation. "Fix Or Repair Daily" isn't very helpful. However "yamaha bike owners ask which valve head shims to buy, bmw owners ask which dealer is the most reputable" is a good description of the mindset for those respective brands, and the what the owners are looking for. Case in point, many BMWs only have an oil low sensor. How low? drain it and measure the volume, no dip stick. This carried over to my mini (bmw made), when the low oil light came on it was at .75 of 4 quarts, basically empty and damaging itself, and the dipstick is almost unreadable except in bright sunlight, but it's sure stylish.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#245

Post by dghughes »

I'm getting more into home repair since my Dad died I help my mom with the house I don't own a house. Really I think it's interesting and could do it as a job. My Dad was a blue collar worker who did almost everything.

I combined the two and I am making a 3D CAD of the family house. I'm learning a lot about foundations, sill plates, rim boards, insulation, sheathing, plumbing. electrical etc.

FYI Matt Risinger has a great channel on YouTube for general home building science. And I watch fellow Canadian Got2Learn on YouTube for plumbing.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#246

Post by supernova87a »

jedberg wrote: post #64

This last summer/fall really put things in perspective for me. We did a major outdoor renovation at our house, which involved landscapers, plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. Every day these guys would show up at 8am and long sleeves and jeans and hard hats, work super hard, pee in a port-a-potty, and be exhausted by the end of the day. They worked out in the 100 degree heat as well as the rain as the job got nea…

I have to say also that the "4 day workweek" idea tends to be embraced by such same people who have little idea what true laborious labor really is and can pontificate about it from their air conditioned offices.

And who I think would be unpleasantly surprised to find out certain inconveniences if everyone's available working hours were cut back by 1 day per week.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#247

Post by MaxBarraclough »

_bfhp wrote: post #175
nkozyra wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something so insidiously, backhandedly condescending about tech workers pining for the simplicity of an honest day's job that drives me nuts. Yes, there are almost always jobs with less strenuous requirements on time, fewer requirements and late nights. But the average tech worker has a pretty good gig. And if they don't they can go down the street in 2022 and get one. Trades scratch a similar itch to develop…

I think it's a manifestation of the inherent feeling that many of us developers are doing something mostly useless compared to others. We know that the world could be different and we could be working jobs that are physically and/or mentally difficult but also fair and useful. Ursula K. Le Guin puts it thus, from her novel "This Dispossessed": "A child free from the guilt of ownership and the burden of economic compe…

A similar idea was expressed by Marx, who referred to it as estranged labour. Forgive the lengthy quote:

> the object which labor produces – labor's product – confronts it as something alien, as a power independent of the producer. The product of labor is labor which has been embodied in an object, which has become material: it is the objectification of labor. Labor’s realization is its objectification. Under these economic conditions this realization of labor appears as loss of realization for the workers; objectification as loss of the object and bondage to it; appropriation as estrangement, as alienation.

> [...]

> the worker is related to the product of labor as to an alien object. For on this premise it is clear that the more the worker spends himself, the more powerful becomes the alien world of objects which he creates over and against himself, the poorer he himself – his inner world – becomes, the less belongs to him as his own.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts...

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#248

Post by artemonster »

civilized wrote: post #223
artemonster wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally believe in statistics and I believe you cannot use them to make derogatory generalizations. I mean racists REALLY love to pull out crime statistics out of their pockets in justification of their views. And, frankly, its not about my beliefs right now and enforcing of societal rules, its about you making derogatory generalizations and thinking that its okay, because "statistics" and because you've said so…

Well, I don't believe what you believe. I think you have an overly general moral rule that you think is necessary for consistency, but it's not really, and it's just your personal belief. Your belief implies it is improper to use statistics to describe morally salient human behavior in any way, unless the conclusion is that there is no variation. I think that's silly and intellectually impoverishing. Groups have diff…

I personally dont require that consistency, I was merely asking WHY there is a difference in treatment of the same method (making generalized statements about group behaviour) when applied to different qualifiers. And yes, just as you've said, maintaining that consistency does imply that you suddenly can't use any statistics at all.

Point taken on "prosecutor attitude", sorry about that. riding "moral high horse" got to my head.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#249

Post by malshe »

laxatives wrote: post #121

A professor of mathematics noticed that his kitchen sink at his home leaked. He called a plumber. The plumber came the next day and sealed a few screws, and everything was working as before. The professor was delighted. However, when the plumber gave him the bill a minute later, he was shocked. "This is one-third of my monthly salary!" he yelled. Well, all the same he paid it and then the plumber said to him, "I unde…

Haha never heard this one before!

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#250

Post by brnaftr361 »

openknot wrote: post #172
artemonster wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how in our progressive society it is absolutely frowned upon to invoke any association between observable societal statistics and, say, race/gender, but its okay to bash BMW/audi drivers. So, user civilized, why is it okay for you to generalize? And why exactly you were sorry? (I am aware that this is a tangent discussion to the original post, but it may be an interesting one)

The comedic term is "punching up" [0]. It's generally more acceptable to make jokes about the (presumably) wealthy owners of BMWs and Audis, versus "punching down" by making fun of people who comparatively face more disadvantages. [0] Urban Dictionary: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Punch%20Up

If we use the punching metaphor, in either case one is committing an act of "violence", which I think most people would acede is negative at least in the large scheme of things.
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