Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

saurik.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 156 posts

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#141

Post by iskander »

8note wrote: post #112
scyclow wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect to point 1, I'm sympathetic to your response, but I don't see things quite as bleakly for a few reasons: - NFTs create a scarcity of ownership, but they don't create a scarcity of enjoyment or experience. In fact, the entire NFT generative art community is based around the idea of viewing and enjoying pieces that you don't personally own. - I don't think scarcity of ownership is necessarily a bad thing.…

if youre not extracting a profit from people enjoying the art, why are you advocating for it? what is your skin in the game? if youre only advocating it to get rid of it by selling it, i dont think thats a genuine advocacy for the piece. im unclear that this scarcity is different from making a wordpress site with n posts, each one being a picture generated with the different parameters. i think the website version is…

> if youre not extracting a profit from people enjoying the art, why are you advocating for it? what is your skin in the game? if youre only advocating it to get rid of it by selling it, i dont think thats a genuine advocacy for the piece.

There's an emotional state associated with having paid money, sometimes a lot of money, for something which makes you want to get something in return. That something can be as simple as collective discussion of the art you bought, or propagation of its image into the real world through murals and commissioned derivatives.

It doesn't have to be a speculative interest in re-selling, though I agree that most people entering the space are exclusively interested in the latter.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#142

Post by vmception »

8note wrote: post #124
vmception wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether they paid in ETH priced in USD, or a stablecoin, or a USD wire to your bank account, many people aren't aware that getting paid in this space is that lucrative and that liquid and that simple.

The Dan olsen analysis is very clear about how lucrative and liquid it is, and where those come from. Ethics wise, that liquidity comes from the scams and you're part and parcel to them by participating

Even if that was something to care about, the entire economy works that way. I don't feel that it is a role of the state to whitelist what money can go into what economy, and even though it has assumed that role in the fiat system it is not successful.

So just go where the action is. Don't scam people yourself while you are at it.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#143

Post by mmerlin »

iskander wrote: post #140
8note wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All an NFT is at heart a JSON blob like { Id: some unique namespaced string (aka, the part that is a non fungible token) Owner: reference to who currently owns it Payload: data that defines the content of the NFT } You can put this in a database if you want, or use a block chain as your data storage. I expect many of those teams you mentioned are solving their NFT issues by moving their NFTs from block chains onto po…

Is there a non-blockchain equivalent of gated access to resources based on ownership of a token? People do this a lot in the NFT space (access to certain chat channels based on owning an NFT), is anything like that happening (rather than theoretically possible) outside of crypto?

How about anything with a membership fee?

The token is the mag-key-card that opens the doors to your local gymnasium.

Or a database entry that gets checked when you show your personal ID to get into the flight club lounge you bought lifetime access to via Amex club

Or any kind of website or info-product you bought a membership for, where the token is your email address + password

etc.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#144

Post by iskander »

mmerlin wrote: post #143
iskander wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a non-blockchain equivalent of gated access to resources based on ownership of a token? People do this a lot in the NFT space (access to certain chat channels based on owning an NFT), is anything like that happening (rather than theoretically possible) outside of crypto?

How about anything with a membership fee? The token is the mag-key-card that opens the doors to your local gymnasium. Or a database entry that gets checked when you show your personal ID to get into the flight club lounge you bought lifetime access to via Amex club Or any kind of website or info-product you bought a membership for, where the token is your email address + password etc.

These all seem different though.

None function with anonymity by default and you can't sell or even transfer most of these memberships.

I wonder if part of the divide on the "utility" of NFTs involves "internet native" culture (assuming the reality of pseudonyms without need to pierce the veil and use a real name).

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#145

Post by iskander »

sophrocyne wrote: post #130
iskander wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In an instance where an L2 is compromised, the potential impact is limited to the integrity of data that individual L2 was contributing to the overall platform. I think distinction is only meaningful as long as L2s remain a niche curiosity while the majority of transaction volume resides on L1. If the L2 plan succeeds and almost all volume passes through an L2 and one of the major L2s has a bug like in this post, th…

Certainly a possibility, but this is one reason I’d be inclined to believe there will be some significant demand for direct L1 transactions, and a diverse set of L2 layers.

Diverse L2 layers sounds like hell.

Where's your ETH?

Evenly sprinkled between StarkNet, zkSync, Arbitrum, and the thirty competitors that will pop up in the next few years.

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#146

Post by Ar-Curunir »

baby wrote: post #121
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a zkSNARK cryptographer, efficient cryptographic proofs are incredibly complex pieces of technology that still have a ways to go before they can match the speed of native execution. Both approaches have pros and cons.

Good thing we’re not competing with native execution, and instead with the slow ethereum computer.

Optimistic rollups are native execution

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#147

Post by sophrocyne »

iskander wrote: post #145
sophrocyne wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly a possibility, but this is one reason I’d be inclined to believe there will be some significant demand for direct L1 transactions, and a diverse set of L2 layers.

Diverse L2 layers sounds like hell. Where's your ETH? Evenly sprinkled between StarkNet, zkSync, Arbitrum, and the thirty competitors that will pop up in the next few years.

Are you envisioning homogenous L2s, or those more specialized in nature? I envision the latter, which would mean the number that any individual entity is exposed to would be limited.

But your point does highlight the UX implications of too much fragmentation, and it’s a worthwhile consideration

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#149

Post by EGreg »

SilasX wrote: post #17
iskander wrote: post #5

This is a concerning aspect of Ethereum's strategy to push scaling to layer-2 networks: Ethereum is a heavily audited and tested protocol that runs an extremely decentralized network of diverse clients. L2s can be...an AWS instance running arbitrary buggy code. Much of the confidence in the "base layer" that people using Ethereum currently experience will be significantly undermined if mundane transactions wend in an…

Yes! I got burned by Optimism in another way. They tell you to point your applications at etherscan.io for transaction data/history, but then, on November 11 last year, the pushed an update that deletes all transaction history up to that point, which you need for taxes! They swore they'd have the history restored on Etherscan by Nov 18th, but they still haven't. Only recently they pushed a workaround that lets you do…

Wait, what do you mean? I can see all ERC20 transactions in our token (and others) from before Nov 2020

Re: Attacking an Ethereum L2 with Unbridled Optimism

#150

Post by EGreg »

SilasX wrote: post #66
3np wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let this be a lesson: Maintain local self-hosted copies of any necessary data, don’t rely on third-parties maintaining it and keeping it available. Should be standard practice for anyone doing anything serious with cryptocurrencies but unfortunately users seem complacent enough that easily accessible tooling is still lacking in many places and you may have to DIY scripts for some parts. Your situation is unfortunate…

Okay... in a sense, yes, in hindsight, I should have planned for this. But there are a number of reasons I think this kind of response is too dismissive. First of all, no matter how well you prepare, there is always going to be one level higher of system failure that you "should have planned for". In the npm-Linux-box-borking debacle, there were people insisting you should never have run npm except on fully disposabl…

You are right. Putting the responsibility on individuals and small organizations is asking for trouble.

But instead, capitalist society simply VC-funds a bunch of centralized entities that wind up with the solution, and don't give it to anyone else. Because after the IPO, Wall Street quarterly earnings demand that it extract rents forever, and you can only do that with closed source software.

Perhaps Web3 and Web4 will finally fix this situation. Open source protocols that can be monetized with cryptocurrency. Filecoin is a good example. It "just works". It may be slightly more expensive than AWS, but can become as resilient as you want.

Post reply on HN