Live data from Hacker News

Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

news.discovery.com

11–20 of 66 posts

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#11
post #5

It is terribly embarrassing. But the solution is not to keep the Shuttle program creaking along, but to work on a new program. At some point, legacy must be removed and a new platform created.

Like I've said repeatedly, what is embarrassing is our dependence on forign nations to get to a space station largely funded and built by us. Russia is not our friend. Russia is a business partner with whom we're not at war.

We should have gotten our asses up and had something new by now, so we could retire the shuttle.

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#12

Great, now try to tell people they should pay more taxes to support a bigger space program - be it carried out by NASA or private companies.

The people don't need to pay more taxes. An adjustment of current budget allocation is all that's needed. For example, you could double NASA's budget by shrinking the war budget from ~$698,000,000,000 to $678,000,000,000 / year. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#14
Isn't SpaceX scheduled to make a resupply flight to the ISS this November? I'm not sure how we get from that to "We will have no American access to, and return from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for an unpredictable length of time in the future".

Is it just because the SpaceX flights are only cargo and not personnel? I can't tell from the SpaceX launch manifest(http://www.spacex.com/launch_manifest.php) what the launch is going to be carrying, but the Dragon is at least capable of carrying crew.

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#15
post #9

The shuttle was never flown the thousands of times it needed to have all the bugs worked out, NASA is an agency lost in middle-management hell, and you can't trust exploration to the politicians. That being said, Armstrong has a point: none of what I've just said is new or is satisfactory as an excuse. The failure to manage these facts and manage our access to space -- perhaps by a privatization push a decade earlier…

>you can't trust exploration to the politicians. I've seen that " you cant trust X to polititians" waaay too often. What's left around that one can supposedly trust them with ? Or even better, is there something we don't trust politicians with that is faring particularily better? the corporate world doesnt seem to show any kind of outstanding performance, and is in fact just as pervaded with politics, with the execs…

I tried to be brief, but your point is taken, if a bit over the top.

Of course you can trust politicians for stuff, just like you can trust your corner grocer not to put poison in your potatoes. The problem, whether the private sector or the government sector, is where there are mixed incentives and no feedback loop. So, for instance, it's a big deal to come out with some vast new NASA goal every time a president gets elected -- but these goals always take decades to make happen, which is long after the current guy is gone. Presidents get mileage out of making the speech and formulating the policy, not making it happen. Likewise, unless you are a congressman from a district with lots of space spending, it's very easy to make speeches with phrases like "why should we go to the moon when we can't even fix our problems down here?" without anybody digging any deeper. So politicians do that. They act rationally.

There are no voters in space. There are no orphans to appear on TV with, and there are no space aliens to defend ourselves against. There's just not a lot up there to emotionally move the electorate, sadly.

In these cases, where the incentives are mixed and there's no reward, you can't trust them because of the role they play in the system as it is currently implemented. And no, I don't mean "can't trust them" as in somehow they are purposefully deceiving anybody or crooked or any of that. Most of them are really smart, dedicated people who want the best for their country. I'm very proud of the politicians and the people who work at NASA. But by acting the most logical way possible, exploration can't prosper. There are no bad guys and no hatred of government here. Space exploration just doesn't work the way it was set up. Sure, as a last great dream of an assassinated president, with a completely new agency, we could hold it together for a decade or so, but those days are long gone. What has been needed for the last 20 years or more is a bit more brave and pointed honesty at NASA. That's maybe too much to ask, but I think guys like Armstrong deserve it.

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#16

I know this has to be incredibly difficult for anyone who grew up during the space race, but there comes a point at which you must force yourself to let go of the old in the act of grasping at the future. Compared to the advance of technology within government organizations like NASA, the progress seen in private programs chasing the X PRIZE has been astounding. So long as the government keeps their 70s era technolog…

Bingo. Armstrong and many of the other old Apollo-era astronauts are emotionally invested in manned space-flight. I think he romanticizes it to the point of being immune to arguments of cost-effectiveness.

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#17
post #6

The title is completely misleading. Armstrong did not tell NASA "you're embarrassing". He told the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology that the demise of NASA is embarrassing. And it is. Regardless of the other crap our government spends money on, NASA is a fantastic investment, and has always provided a positive return to our economy.

I'm sorry, but you have no way of knowing this. What would happen if you took a bunch of would-be rocket scientists and hadn't given them jobs at NASA?

No, I don't have absolute certainty, but there have been studies on its economic impact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget#Economic_impact_of_...

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#18

I know this has to be incredibly difficult for anyone who grew up during the space race, but there comes a point at which you must force yourself to let go of the old in the act of grasping at the future. Compared to the advance of technology within government organizations like NASA, the progress seen in private programs chasing the X PRIZE has been astounding. So long as the government keeps their 70s era technolog…

Bingo. Armstrong and many of the other old Apollo-era astronauts are emotionally invested in manned space-flight. I think he romanticizes it to the point of being immune to arguments of cost-effectiveness.

It's not just about emotions. It's the next frontier. Don't you want us to get there first? It's also a great investment, it creates jobs and develops technological breakthroughs that benefit everyone.

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#19
This situations represents a failure to understand economics. From the moon race to the period of the XPrize, and even after, NASA and the FCC has stymied private access to space. It is hard to test a launch vehicle if you can't get a launch or even testing (e.g.: static firing) permits. It is hard to start a space tourism business if the person developing your vehicles is barred from showing the CEO of the company the designs (as happened to Virgin Galactic for a couple years because Richard Branson is not a US citizen!)

This should resonate really well with anyone building a startup. A startup is a money engine. You find something that is profitable, and you invest in it and grow it.

You can go out and spend a lot of money doing things the manual way, but if everything pretty much stops when you stop spending money, you're not really investing in a sustainable business.

This is the case with NASA and a lot of government programs. We were spending a lot of money, but we were not building a space industry... in fact, because government bureaucrats saw space as a competitive advantage (NASA, for instance, long enjoyed easy funding from Congress) they worked to stymie private interests that might show them up.

It is great that things are changing now. We have SpaceX building launch vehicles. Virgin Galactic will start their business any day now (hopefully, though remember how congress wanted to shut it down because it might not be "safe"?) Jeff Bezos is doing something off in the desert of west texas, and even John Carmack has a small space business.

But we cannot ignore the legacy of hundreds of billion sunk into NASA on unsustainable programs, and quirky launch vehicles designed to meet bureaucratic needs, such as to at least have one component of it built in each of the 50 states.

So, the news that NASA is in an "embarrassing" state to me, is good news. I say this, because I would very much like to see Humans have ready access to space.

Re: Armstrong to Nasa: You're embarrassing

#20

I know this has to be incredibly difficult for anyone who grew up during the space race, but there comes a point at which you must force yourself to let go of the old in the act of grasping at the future. Compared to the advance of technology within government organizations like NASA, the progress seen in private programs chasing the X PRIZE has been astounding. So long as the government keeps their 70s era technolog…

Bingo. Armstrong and many of the other old Apollo-era astronauts are emotionally invested in manned space-flight. I think he romanticizes it to the point of being immune to arguments of cost-effectiveness.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN