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An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

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Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#281

Post by dharmab »

sixothree wrote: post #278
todd8 wrote: post #48

I like the functionality of the AirTags so I don't want them nerfed, but I can think of no way to fix their fundamental problem of being such easy to use stalking devices. Chefs knives are great for cooking and are inexpensive and easy to purchase; they can be very dangerous weapons in the wrong hands so we make it against the law to use them in that manner. Maybe that's the best we can do with AirTags.

What's different from a thief stealing my bag and carrying it around in their car versus me putting an airtag in the exact same location without them knowing? If a thief has my bag I definitely don't want them knowing they're being tracked. Maybe I don't quite understand something about this announcement.

Were AirTags ever marketed as theft recovery devices? Or only as a lost and found system?

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#282

Post by sixothree »

rolobio wrote: post #167
prpl wrote: post #162

If somebody steals your car/purse/whatever with an airtag on it, and that person has an iPhone, will they get notification that somebody is tracking them?

Yes. "If a Find My network accessory that's separated from its owner is seen moving with you over time, this alert is displayed" https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212227

That seriously degrades the usefulness of airtags. I might want something with less privacy features included.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#283

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

"We're working closely with the police on our pervasive, no-permission geo-tracking system" is a *terrible* fucking message to hear.

It won't be long before they have tiny mics, too. And the little speakers they have, of course, can be disabled.

We on HN should really band together to do something about this. There is already https://github.com/seemoo-lab/AirGuard which is cool. What else could be done? I can think of some general directions:

1) Fill their network with noise somehow. If there are lots of tags, or tags pretending to be other tags, then information on which tag is where will be less valuable

2) Make something that forces existing tags to out themselves (should they have working speakers)

3) Jam their radio signals. Probably illegal in the U.S. under FCC rules, but perhaps there's a way to do it where you're not actually jamming, you're merely doing something else that causes them to not work.

4) Find some reliable way of identifying them via a wand, your phone, etc.

5) Apply political pressure to make this sort of thing illegal (especially for the authorities)

6) Make laws that say if you're using spectrum to build a mesh network, it has to be open to everyone

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#284

Post by celsoazevedo »

charcircuit wrote: post #269
concinds wrote: post #119

Android users are still vulnerable, and these announcements do nothing to reduce that. All a stalker needs to do, is remove the speaker. To detect a rogue AirTag, an Android owner needs to: 1) know AirTags exist (many obviously don't) 2) go out of their way to install Apple's Android AirTag scanner app (only 100k-500k worldwide have done so according to Google Play stats) 3) manually open the scanner app and scan, si…

>Android users are still vulnerable You misunderstand how airtags work. Airtags can't track an android user. It can only track people with iPhones (and possibly other apple devices).

That's not how Airtags work. From Apple's website:

> Your AirTag sends out a secure Bluetooth signal that can be detected by nearby devices in the Find My network. These devices send the location of your AirTag to iCloud — then you can go to the Find My app and see it on a map.

Airtags broadcast their ID via bluetooth and then any nearby iPhone with "Find My" enabled will be looking for these signals. If something is found, it sends the information to Apple and Apple then makes it available to the Airtag user.

The person or object doesn't need a phone (be it Android or iPhone) to be tracked. All Airtag needs is to be detected by someone else's iPhone.

Why are Android users vulnerable? Because iPhones will automatically warn you if a tag that isn't yours stays near you for a long time while Android users have no idea. Apple released an app for Android, but it requires users to perform manual scans...

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#285

Post by kortilla »

x0x0 wrote: post #244
foolfoolz wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this would violate privacy laws like gdpr

Why and how? I'm quite familiar with gdpr, btw -- and I don't see how being able to look up a uuid or some other nonsequential identifier via a site to find the owner obviously violates it. There's a strong legitimate interest case for anyone in possession of a global tracking tag being able to find out the owner, I would think.

I don’t want some asshole who steals my keys to be able to look up my name. How is that a good idea?

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#286

Post by sixothree »

dharmab wrote: post #281
sixothree wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's different from a thief stealing my bag and carrying it around in their car versus me putting an airtag in the exact same location without them knowing? If a thief has my bag I definitely don't want them knowing they're being tracked. Maybe I don't quite understand something about this announcement.

Were AirTags ever marketed as theft recovery devices? Or only as a lost and found system?

For the user, there's little difference.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#287

Post by kortilla »

oxplot wrote: post #251

This is a great response - very happy to hear Apple's involvement with various groups to make things better. Some noteworthy bits: > we innovated with the first-ever proactive system to alert you of unwanted tracking If that's true, then Apple just raised the privacy bar and now Tile and other small players need to up their game to stay relevant. There is also lesson to learn here: whoever makes a tech/product popula…

> If that's true, then Apple just raised the privacy bar and now Tile and other small players need to up their game to stay relevant.

No they didn’t. This “feature” is garbage for the people who actually buy it. It makes putting air tags on things shared by a bunch of people a huge pain in the ass.

“Freaking people out who are on the bus with you because you forgot your phone but have your keys” is not a selling feature.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#288

Post by sgustard »

moogly wrote: post #174
concinds wrote: post #119

Android users are still vulnerable, and these announcements do nothing to reduce that. All a stalker needs to do, is remove the speaker. To detect a rogue AirTag, an Android owner needs to: 1) know AirTags exist (many obviously don't) 2) go out of their way to install Apple's Android AirTag scanner app (only 100k-500k worldwide have done so according to Google Play stats) 3) manually open the scanner app and scan, si…

> I remember seeing a chills-down-your-spine Apple Watch Series 7 TV ad, that featured beautiful remote nature landscapes, with the audio of 911 calls made from people's Apple Watches whose lives were saved by their Watch. Probably one of Apple's best and most impactful ad in the past decade. One could argue it's pretty distasteful to try to cash in on people's fears.

It's a fine line, but I feel Apple avoided being exploitative here. The vibe wasn't "you deserve to have this terrible thing happen if you don't buy our product." The watch clearly provided real utility to real customers and it's worth highlighting.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#290

Post by ec109685 »

kortilla wrote: post #287
oxplot wrote: post #251

This is a great response - very happy to hear Apple's involvement with various groups to make things better. Some noteworthy bits: > we innovated with the first-ever proactive system to alert you of unwanted tracking If that's true, then Apple just raised the privacy bar and now Tile and other small players need to up their game to stay relevant. There is also lesson to learn here: whoever makes a tech/product popula…

> If that's true, then Apple just raised the privacy bar and now Tile and other small players need to up their game to stay relevant. No they didn’t. This “feature” is garbage for the people who actually buy it. It makes putting air tags on things shared by a bunch of people a huge pain in the ass. “Freaking people out who are on the bus with you because you forgot your phone but have your keys” is not a selling feat…

You can chose to stop getting an alert if a particular device is following you, so that should handle the communal device with an AirTag?
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