An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking • Hacker News Board

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#231

Post by howinteresting » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:04 AM UTC

Closi wrote: post #110

josephcsible wrote: post #103

> New privacy warnings during AirTag setup: In an upcoming software update, every user setting up their AirTag for the first time will see a message that clearly states that AirTag is meant to track their own belongings, that using AirTag to track people without consent is a crime in many regions around the world, that AirTag is designed to be detected by victims, I expect that this will be about as effective as the…

> How convenient. Now you need a modern, expensive Apple product to protect yourself from stalkers. To be honest, this is more about technical capability than an intentional lock-out. If older phones simply don't have the hardware to do precision finding, what would you propose Apple does? No precision finding for anyone?

I'm pretty sure many modern Android devices have the required technical functionality including UWB.

Airtags as global trackers should not exist. Finding things locally is a completely different use case.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#232

Post by RC_ITR » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:06 AM UTC

tacLog wrote: post #229

rainsford wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a major part of the announcement you're skipping over is the clear statement that individual AirTags are linked to specific AppleIDs and Apple will cooperate with law enforcement to help identify the owners of AirTags used for criminal activity. If you're a wannabe stalker, the fact that Apple has made it clear they're just itching to point the cops in your direction if you misuse their technology seems like…

Do you have to reveal who you are to Apple to use an airtag though? Or with decent operational security can you purchase and activate airtags in an untraceable way? If you can that undermines your point, however if you can't then your making a very good point.

If a stalker is willing to buy a burner iOS device (since that's the means of viewing Airtag data), associate it with an untraceable email/iCloud, and only leave the device's location services on in locations that aren't tied to their identity (since Apple also knows where the tracking phone is), then 'having access to Airtags' probably isn't the 'make or break' factor in whether or not they will stalk someone.

If a user has that level of tech savvy, there are plenty of other cellular GPS devices they could use.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#233

Post by isatty » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:06 AM UTC

concinds wrote: post #119

Android users are still vulnerable, and these announcements do nothing to reduce that. All a stalker needs to do, is remove the speaker. To detect a rogue AirTag, an Android owner needs to: 1) know AirTags exist (many obviously don't) 2) go out of their way to install Apple's Android AirTag scanner app (only 100k-500k worldwide have done so according to Google Play stats) 3) manually open the scanner app and scan, si…

As an adult with ADHD AirTags have been an absolute godsend. I have them on my keys, wallet and backpack and I’ve pinged them all separately just this week.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#234

Post by p1mrx » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:08 AM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #120

isoprophlex wrote: post #16

Are airtags still useful for eg. tracking a stolen bike? Or will it now alert the thief within minutes that the bike contains a tracker?

Destroy the speaker and hide the device inside a tire, steerer tube, or other such place? I mean the thief will get notified, but what are they going to do? Dismount tires, disassemble steering assembly, remove the grips, undo the saddle, bottle mount, Garmin mount, bash guard, lights, etc? This all takes time and skill, it can’t be done on the spot and if they dragged the bike home or to a fence they have already di…

Would those locations actually work? A tire is a physically violent place, and a steering tube looks a lot like a faraday cage.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#235

Post by notatoad » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:10 AM UTC

jeromegv wrote: post #188

notatoad wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

probably the same loophole as the "end-to-end encryption" in iMessage. it's end-to-end, but the client is their close-source proprietary software, so if they need access to the data they can just remotely access the client software that you've authenticated and access whatever they need to.

That’s not the iMessage loophole. The loophole is when you have iClouds backup enabled. They have access to it. Disable the backup, you disable the loophole.

Maybe something has changed or i'm missing something, but my understanding is that even without iCloud backup enabled, if you went through the "i forgot my password" process they could remotely generate a new key and create new copies of all your iMessages encrypted with the new key. Which is effectively replicating exactly the attack that e2e is supposed to protect against.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#236

Post by Melatonic » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:12 AM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #22

karaterobot wrote: post #9

> In an upcoming software update, every user setting up their AirTag for the first time will see a message that clearly states that AirTag is meant to track their own belongings, that using AirTag to track people without consent is a crime in many regions around the world That really should do it. I mean, in the unlikely event that a message to first time users doesn't solve the problem of people being stalked using…

They can just install an app if they're worried about being tracked by AirTags: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apple.trac... Just remember to add the Tile app too, it does the same thing.

Wont run in the background though - you have to actively think to use it each time your worried about being stalked.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#237

Post by Schiendelman » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:13 AM UTC

closetohome wrote: post #10

mperham wrote: post #4

I get an alert every time I ride my wife’s bicycle. It would be nice to be able to mark her tags as ok to be near me.

Being able to share AirTags via a family iCloud account seems to be a pretty commonly requested feature. It does seem a little silly that I can track every device attached to the account but not AirTags.

That feature already exists. If you are sharing your device locations with your iCloud family members you won’t get the complaint notifications.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#238

Post by Schiendelman » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:13 AM UTC

varenc wrote: post #64

nomel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said this in other threads, but I'm probably done buying AirTags, because the anti-stalking features, that I assume you're aware of, are so annoying, that I don't want to add any more to my life. When I get in my car with my wife, we both get a notification that an AirTag is following us, because my wife is potentially stalking me with her purse and keys. I can silence this notification for only one day. I can't…

Apple just needs to add shared AirTags to iClould family sharing. I think that’d solve your issue and ~90% of other unwanted stalking alerts. They already allow shared “Find My iDevice” and just need to add AirTags to the mix.

It appears to already be in the mix for me. I see other reports on this thread saying the same.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#239

Post by jeromegv » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:14 AM UTC

varenc wrote: post #79

nomel wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but from previous HN threads, people have said that this would enable people in abusive relationships to be stalked. Also, it appears that some distance is required to trigger the notification, so I imagine stalkers could use the AirTags within this distance. For example, to find which apartment someone lives in, within a building. I think there will always be headlines about stalking and abuse, and people c…

> would enable people in abusive relationships to be stalked I can see that concern, but family sharing ALREADY lets you share iDevice locations at all time. That's a superior form of stalking compared to AirTags... So I just don't get this concern. It might just be perception though. From a PR perspective this is a bad time to release any feature that could be perceived as reducing AirTag stalking alerts.

Yep. People saying that have no idea.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#240

Post by Wowfunhappy » Fri, Feb 11, 2022, 1:21 AM UTC

> Every AirTag has a unique serial number, and paired AirTags are associated with an Apple ID. Apple can provide the paired account details in response to a subpoena or valid request from law enforcement. We have successfully partnered with them on cases where information we provided has been used to trace an AirTag back to the perpetrator, who was then apprehended and charged.

This makes me wonder, could Apple go further?

What if Apple put up a web page where anyone could type in the serial number of any AirTag they found, and instantly see the name and phone number of its owner? Apple could even print the website URL on the back of every future AirTag (albeit presumably in tiny print).

I bet that would make stalkers think twice! And, I don't think there's any technical reason Apple couldn't do it, right?

What I'm not sure about is whether this would be an invasion of the owner's privacy. But, if you're using AirTags to only track your own belongings, when would this ever come up? The owner's privacy seems less important than that of an unwitting victim, since the owner can choose to not buy an AirTag.