Live data from Hacker News

An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

apple.com

201–210 of 508 posts

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Apple apparently has done it with anti-stalking features but is too high-profile. Remember that stalking isn't a profession; it's often a crime of opportunity, with plenty of reported cases of e.g. people slipping GPS trackers into spouses' cars/bags before or during divorces. Those people aren't sophisticated, and might go on Amazon and see Tiles that won't work (sparse detection network), or GPS trackers that…

> Those people aren't sophisticated It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity. > "problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk" Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them. Also, considering how long Tile has been on the market, this doesn't seem like a…

It feels like you're twisting my words.

I never said Apple should unlock it more, I said they should discontinue it, and their executives displayed poor judgment in approving the product.

I never argued that AirTags were nerfed into uselessness, I responded to your argument that they were nerfed into becoming useless for stalking, which I don't think is true.

> Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them

Plenty of people have iPads catching dust in drawers, who would never have bought Android tablets (or any tablet) if the iPad had never existed. It's the power of Apple's marketing. Anytime I argue against AirTags, I argue that availability is a game-changer, and nobody actually tried to address this argument convincingly.

- Someone at a club or rave might impulsively or drunkenly decide to remove the AirTag they use for their keyring, and slip it into someone's pocket. They might never have bought a tracker if Apple didn't have one.

- Again, the iPad-catching-dust-in-a-drawer argument. Plenty of people buy Apple products on a whim who would never have considered that product category if the Apple product didn't exist. iPads popularized tablets, Apple Watches popularized smartwatches (at least among US teens), AirPods popularized bluetooth earphones). Apple's marketing doesn't just increase sales for their products, it promotes the entire product category. People hear about iPad, are interested, and might buy an iPad or a cheaper competitor; when they would never have bought a tablet if the iPad hadn't created a "halo effect". You can argue the effect is less for AirTags, but don't tell me it's nonexistent!

- The copycat effect is strong among criminals. Ransomware attacks were almost nonexistent, and became common very rapidly, as awareness spread among criminals, as they rushed to take advantage of the opportunity before the crypto, legal, or antivirus ecosystems catch up and make it less rewarding. In 2009 around 1 in 13 stalkers used trackers of any kind; that number's surely gone up between 2009 and 2021 (AirTag release), but you really think that number won't go over the next few years, partly because of increased popular awareness of trackers?

> It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity.

I said often a crime of opportunity, not always (or even mostly), and that those for whom it was a crime of opportunity, weren't sophisticated. The average bank robber might have done a good deal of research on bank security systems and circumvention. The average stalker might not think of using GPS tracking unless he's reminded of their existence, since there are so many other methods (likely, most stalking is online nowadays). Hence my "availability" argument.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#202
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe he's saying that stabbing someone is illegal

Current stalking laws already cover such abuses of airtags. I see quite a few comments in this thread proposing a total ban of airtags, which makes about as much sense to me as wanting to restrict chef knives.

That is the exact point the comment you replied to was making.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s see how hard it is to neuter the sound generation within the AirTag itself. If it’s silent itself, an Android or no-device trackee is vulnerable. There is not much tech that lacks unpreventable malicious use. Needs to be expected for pretty much anything.

Would it be possible to design the device to detect if the speaker has been tampered with? Perhaps having some sort of microphone on board to detect whether the speaker is functional would work.

This could be put into the speaker driver, to do something like an impedance measurement, to verify that something that looks like a speaker coil is still present. If you wanted to make something hard to defeat, you could measure the capacitance between the coil and case, as a deflection measumerent, to verify that coil was actually moving in a way that it should be. Both would probably add a relatively large amount of power consumption, completely change the design, and add a bunch of cost, where nobody would be interested anymore.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#204
post #162

If somebody steals your car/purse/whatever with an airtag on it, and that person has an iPhone, will they get notification that somebody is tracking them?

Yes, though I'm not sure how long it takes for that warning to pop up.

In my experience, it's generally more than the few minutes someone that grabs a purse will keep the purse before looking for cash/whatever.

A car is, of course different. I had the brilliant idea to put an airtag in my car so I could find it if I forgot where I parked. Then I got a call from a very worried SO that borrowed my car that thought they were being stalked (there's a history there of issues, so yeah, fun times).

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#205

Android users are still vulnerable, and these announcements do nothing to reduce that. All a stalker needs to do, is remove the speaker. To detect a rogue AirTag, an Android owner needs to: 1) know AirTags exist (many obviously don't) 2) go out of their way to install Apple's Android AirTag scanner app (only 100k-500k worldwide have done so according to Google Play stats) 3) manually open the scanner app and scan, si…

does 2) really mean that, or does it mean that many people have downloaded it.

does 2) get updated if someone deletes the app?

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#206
post #96
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you on a shared iCloud account? This never happens to my wife and I but we’re on the same iCloud family account.

Interesting. Just one data point, but my wife and I both have airtags on our keys. When I drive her car (and she's not in it), I get a notification about her keys traveling with me. We're on the same iCloud "family" account. I wonder if there’s something else that needs to happen?

When you go into "Find My", can you see your wife's devices and keys?

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you don't lose stuff as much as other people? My brother was always complaining about losing his wallet, his keys, anything you can think of. I got him a tile, but their product wasn't very accurate. Got him airtags and the problem is solved. Not only are air tags useful, but I'm sure that there are people who would be willing to switch to iOS solely to get access to airtags. That seems pretty valuable to apple…

> Maybe you don't lose stuff as much as other people? I relate to it and respect it, but it's doubtful anyone would switch to iPhone because of AirTags. Samsung and others also make trackers, and you don't need the Find My network if you lost your keys inside your house, any tracker will do. > Not only are air tags useful, but I'm sure that there are people who would be willing to switch to iOS surely to get access t…

From the sound of things the airtags have been legitimately life changing for him. I know that sounds hard to believe, I certainly didn't at first but never losing stuff really seems like a weight off his mind. You're right, there's probably no evidence of people switching to apple for airtags, but that might be because they're such a new and relatively unknown product.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#208
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give examples?

Battery Status API, Ambient Light are the two big Mozilla examples I know, but I suspect the list may be fairly long. I believe they are also against web bluetooth and serial. Apple has some permission stuff that apparently degrades Tile on their platforms IIRC.

There is no reason for any of those to be exposed to the web.

For web specs you can't just think "I could do this cool thing", you have to say "what can a random popup ad do with this". Our experience with WebGL shows permission dialogs are a bad experience, and people will also click "yes" to make them go away. Most users report "would you like notifications" from websites as being spam/annoying.

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#209

> In an upcoming software update, every user setting up their AirTag for the first time will see a message that clearly states that AirTag is meant to track their own belongings, that using AirTag to track people without consent is a crime in many regions around the world That really should do it. I mean, in the unlikely event that a message to first time users doesn't solve the problem of people being stalked using…

They can just install an app if they're worried about being tracked by AirTags: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apple.trac... Just remember to add the Tile app too, it does the same thing.

Don't forget the Samsung SmartTag app!

Re: An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

#210
post #58
post #18

> ...and we condemn in the strongest possible terms any malicious use of our products. Then subject them to malicious users before releasing them to see what sort of ideas they can come up with in a few days, and mitigate those before general release. Go schedule a room at Defcon, give people AirTags, and see what they do. If they neutralized your mitigations in an hour, well... other people can figure that out too.…

I've said this in other threads, but I'm probably done buying AirTags, because the anti-stalking features, that I assume you're aware of, are so annoying, that I don't want to add any more to my life. When I get in my car with my wife, we both get a notification that an AirTag is following us, because my wife is potentially stalking me with her purse and keys. I can silence this notification for only one day. I can't…

> If the metric is to stop all the bad, then technology needs a huge lobotomy!

I think we need to change the metric. Every tool humans have ever invented can be used maliciously. So we have fallback options, like punishment, to mitigate that. Apple needs to make you read and acknowledge a notice when you get an AirTag that says quite clearly that they know the serial number and will happily provide your contact info to authorities on request. And then police need to actually arrest people for misusing tags to stalk.

Post reply on HN