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Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#221

Post by paisawalla »

lsaferite wrote: post #173
paisawalla wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: accurately ascertaining an engineer's capability is their secret sauce, why should they be obliged to share that information with anyone?

If that were really the goal then they would never publish the information in the first place. Instead they are apparently scrubbing it _after_ they leave. That's not preventing another company from using the data when hiring you away, that's being petty and erasing you from their history for the most part.

Who's publishing it? Apple is not sending out a list of who's at which level. You need to bring evidence if you're claiming otherwise. Products like Work Number are based on inference or direct observation of these titles through payroll integrations or other exhaust.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#222

Post by corry »

paisawalla wrote: post #157
cma wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Undermining everyone who leaves is cult leadership behavior.

Counterpoint: accurately ascertaining an engineer's capability is their secret sauce, why should they be obliged to share that information with anyone?

Much better said than in my parent comment, cheers!

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#223

Post by rvba »

sprayk wrote: post #115
rvba wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They dont want others to pouch their employees - so they screw those who leave by deleting their title?

less about screwing the competition, more about hindering their ability to learn about development through trawling resumes. The more I try and describe it, the weaker it sounds in my head, but the idea is you could get some info on what Apple is doing by looking at resumes referencing Apple, then corroborate what you saw by checking former position with those firms.

Apple was part of the "no cold calling" cartel. Basically companies had a silent agreement not to pouch employees.

Why give them benefit of doubt now?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#224

Post by hammock »

ghaff wrote: post #220
genocidicbunny wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Associate, in the USA at least, has a strong connotation of a junior position. As the article points out, there are plenty of examples of associate being used to describe a more junior position. And you know what other word unambiguously means 'employee'? That wouldn't cause this sort of clamor? Yes, 'employee' is that word.

What if they were a contractor? Or were both an employee and a contractor over the course of their time there? I'm an "associate" at the company I work for and I'm certainly not junior. I certainly don't take offense at considering myself as an associate. In specific contexts, e.g. an associate vs. a partner at a law firm, it has a different meaning but it's also a very common term to refer to all employees at a comp…

Thank you for a supporting viewpoint. Amazing the amount of downvotes I've gotten in this thread, from people who I have to imagine have just never come across this term used in that way.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#225

Post by rvba »

corry wrote: post #132
tinalumfoil wrote: post #96

If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine? WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics. If I want my employer to know what number Apple ass…

I can see a weird sort of logic to Apple. Why would they share their judgement about the level of an ex-employee with a potential rival company (rival in case of talent perhaps also product)? Let the employee say "I was Level 5 @ Apple" and have the hiring company verify that the person is at whatever level that implies . Why should Apple allow its rivals piggyback on its own levelling system?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#226

Post by kesselvon »

ghaff wrote: post #177
treis wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future employers will ask your level and if Apple tells them something different they're going to think you're lying. I can see it being problematic when applying to Government or enterprise roles. They will do their due diligence and might rescind an offer if they find a discrepancy.

My external title (which is also what's on my resume) has generally not corresponded to my official HR title--which I might not even know off the top of my head. There's this weird fixation on specific levels associated with technical roles at the big tech companies which mostly doesn't exist anywhere else outside of the very highest levels. It's also not clear to me from the article that Apple is changing the person…

Titles are important for pay reasons, as they correspond to pay bands. People that say titles don't matter are probably already making outsized compensation and don't find it important because their resume speaks for itself.

A manager and director can be doing the same job, but the title matters in terms of their compensation and potential title at their next job.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#227

Post by dnissley »

tristor wrote: post #110
_fat_santa wrote: post #6

Wouldn't there be other ways for you to prove you were a "Level 4" or whatever at Apple and not an associate? An offer letter from Apple? Or just the totality of circumstances in general. If say you're interviewing for a "Sr Engineer" position, you're just not going to have an instance where the candidate shows experience and knowledge but doesn't get hired because some record from Lexis Nexis says that he was an "as…

> Wouldn't there be other ways for you to prove you were a "Level 4" or whatever at Apple and not an associate? An offer letter from Apple? Having gone through this with several employers, the largest company doing this verification is HireRight. HireRight is BEYOND incompetent at every single level. They refuse documentation such as offer letters on company letterhead to prove a title. The only documentation they ac…

Just went through hire right for the second time in my life -- interestingly they do now warn you to redact your income information from the w-2s they require.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#228

Post by shapefrog »

genocidicbunny wrote: post #99
hammock wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Associate means employee

Associate, in the USA at least, has a strong connotation of a junior position. As the article points out, there are plenty of examples of associate being used to describe a more junior position. And you know what other word unambiguously means 'employee'? That wouldn't cause this sort of clamor? Yes, 'employee' is that word.

In the USA at least, Vice President has a strong connotation of the 2nd most powerful person in the goverment.

Most companies have one or more people titled as such, yet not all of them employ the Vice President of the USA.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#229

Post by bink »

treis wrote: post #210
quietbritishjim wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Future employers will ask your level and if Apple tells them something different they're going to think you're lying. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening. It's clear that "associate" means "they worked here but we won't tell you what as, ha ha". That's not lying! That's just not telling. And it's no reason for a future company to be suspicious.

>It's clear that "associate" means "they worked here but we won't tell you what as, ha ha" I don't think that's clear. And if that's the message they want to send why not just confirm employment but not state a level?

They're submitting this data to Lexis-Nexis. It's not about employers calling Apple to verify the info. Lexis-Nexis most likely requires a title and Apple is changing it after people leave.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#230

Post by bink »

paisawalla wrote: post #221
lsaferite wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were really the goal then they would never publish the information in the first place. Instead they are apparently scrubbing it _after_ they leave. That's not preventing another company from using the data when hiring you away, that's being petty and erasing you from their history for the most part.

Who's publishing it? Apple is not sending out a list of who's at which level. You need to bring evidence if you're claiming otherwise. Products like Work Number are based on inference or direct observation of these titles through payroll integrations or other exhaust.

Read the article. This is about Apple submitting this data to private companies like Lexis-Nexis and then changing it when employees leave.
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