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Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

netzpolitik.org

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Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#151

Post by YEwSdObPQT »

zozbot234 wrote: post #147
YEwSdObPQT wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really want people to stereotype all Germans as Nazis and Holocaust deniers? Because I'm pretty sure this is what would end up happening if the German government did not go to the trouble of explicitly banning these things, regardless of how few people actually advocated them. No it wouldn't. This is a ridiculous argument. > It's basically a free boost in optics and national pride that benefits practically a…

> The cost is individual liberty. What about the average German's liberty of not having his country publicly badmouthed due to the actions of a few crazy nutcases? It's hard to seriously argue that this wouldn't happen, given Germany's post-WWII history. (Also I'm not sure why you're bringing up the 'last two years', the prohibition has been in place for far longer than that.)

You are advocating for throwing the baby out with the bath water.

> It's hard to seriously argue that this wouldn't happen, given Germany's post-WWII history. (Also I'm not sure why you're bringing up the 'last two years', the prohibition has been in place for far longer than that.)

The German government (not the German people) are the ones that are giving themselves a bad name by denying people their individual liberty. Those liberties include (and are not limited to), the right to speak freely even if that speech is unpopular.

Regarding the last two year. During last two years we have had individual rights eroded all over the western world due under the guise of controlling the spread of COVID. Just like we had our rights eroded due to the threat of terrorism at the hands of Islamic extremists.

Personally I was unemployed for 9 months because of the economic uncertainty caused by lockdowns and it depleted me of almost all my savings and almost killed my business. I owe about £25,000 (bank loans and credit cards etc) and it will take me another year to pay it all off at least.

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#152

Post by kmeisthax »

mtmail wrote: post #41
kmeisthax wrote: post #23

Can't read German, but I'm going to assume the channels in question are full of neo-Nazis. If that's the case then this isn't anything particularly new; Germany's constitution explicitly denies freedom of speech to Nazis. I don't find this particularly objectionable on it's own; Nazis and neo-Nazis never believed in free speech to begin with. However, we should still remain wary of false positives or scope creep beyo…

> Can't read German, but I'm going to assume Reading the article leads to a better discussion. Link to translated article https://netzpolitik-org.translate.goog/2022/nach-gespraechen...

My experience with machine translation is that it's unreliable at best and wholly unfit for purpose at worst. In this case, I'd rather known ignorance over being misled.

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#153

Post by Arnt »

YEwSdObPQT wrote: post #139
Arnt wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bans seem to work, AFAICT, but only after each ban takes effect, not before.

So you don't know?

Banned groups largely stop recruiting and killing. But then, in a different universe, maybe they would have stopped recruiting and killing even without the ban. How would you know?

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#154

Post by stjohnswarts »

estranhosidade wrote: post #2

The article is written in German, but with a Google Translate you can understand the just of it. Apparently Telegram added a new blocking system based on phone numbers, sorta a geo-blocking thing, and people with German phone numbers registered on their Telegram accounts aren't able to access those blocked channels. Also, unlike the previous block this one applies even to the users who are using the app downloaded di…

Well telegram has to abide by German law, otherwise authorities will seize all their assets in Germany (and maybe even Europe?) and shut them down and sue them international court for ignoring the will of a Nation. I don't think Telegram had much choice in the matter. Thanks for the summary.

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#155

Post by irtigor »

mannerheim wrote: post #131
zaarn wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is clearly a bait and switch. If illegal actions are being perpetrated (e.g., death threats) then prosecute them. They are. The operators of the channel have an open arrest warrant for inciting hatred, denying the holocaust and death threats against public and private persons. > wholly based in the USA because it does not like things on the website that are no only legal in the USA, protected by the fundamental…

> That changes when the "wholly USA" website is being used by German citizens, who are under jurisdiction. Then block the website in your country. If I have no physical, legal, or economic presence in your country, I shouldn't expect to have to follow your laws. Do I need to start enforcing Thai lèse majesté laws too, now?

Liking it or not you do have legal or economic presence when you accept people in Germany to visit your site (e.g at first more than a few American websites simply blocked all EU traffic after GDPR was approved), and if you keep violating the local law after being requested to cooperate, they will fine, emit arrest requests and sure enough if deemed necessary also block your website temporarily/permanently, in other words they will do what they would do in any other case even if the full application of the law is less effective because you are not physically there (or have any interest to be) to personally see a big difference in your quality of life.

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#156

Post by mannerheim »

irtigor wrote: post #155
mannerheim wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That changes when the "wholly USA" website is being used by German citizens, who are under jurisdiction. Then block the website in your country. If I have no physical, legal, or economic presence in your country, I shouldn't expect to have to follow your laws. Do I need to start enforcing Thai lèse majesté laws too, now?

Liking it or not you do have legal or economic presence when you accept people in Germany to visit your site (e.g at first more than a few American websites simply blocked all EU traffic after GDPR was approved), and if you keep violating the local law after being requested to cooperate, they will fine, emit arrest requests and sure enough if deemed necessary also block your website temporarily/permanently, in other…

Then block the website. It's not my responsibility to bring my website into compliance with the laws of all 200 countries in the world and the laws of the jurisdictions within them. Because of VPNs, it's impossible to tell which users belong to which countries (and even without it, geo IP isn't that reliable).

> e.g at first more than a few American websites simply blocked all EU traffic after GDPR was approved

Those websites have parent companies who have an economic presence in the EU.

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#157

Post by hutzlibu »

YEwSdObPQT wrote: post #150
hutzlibu wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is very simple really. " Is it? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30289162 You don't think, there are limits to the things I should be allowed to say about you? Or about the things I think other people should do to you? (are you aware, that there is a difference btw. between literally killing people and people dying of starvation because of incompetence? Apparently not.) But I actually do think, the limits sho…

> You don't think, there are limits to the things I should be allowed to say about you? No. The only concession I would consider is a call to violence if there is an real and immediate threat . Not internet death threats. The second I may concede would be defamation under a very strict standard e.g. You were claiming someone broke a law. > Or about the things I think other people should do to you? People can say anyt…

"People can say anything they like to me or about me. What they cannot do is vandalise my property, take my property or assault me."

So can "they" openly say, that they think, you deserve to be robbed and assaulted? And for the sake of it, let "them" be a famous antifa influencer, so you can expect that other people do as their influencer told them is the right thing?

I don't think so. This is the line I mean, which is not at all clear.

"The communists killed and imprisoned a huge number of people."

You claimed they killed more than the nazis. Which is a claim, I heard before quite often, but usually without proper sources.

But you do not have to tell me about pol pot, gulags and co. I am certainly no fan of them either. And like I said, I am not in favor of banning swastikas. Not so much, because some poor nazis are then not free to express their ideology, but because the symbol is way older and was not invented by the nazis, just missused. So I agree, that by the same logic, you would have to ban the hammer and the christian cross with it. Still, the death chambers and the holocaust was very unique in its quantity and quality, so I cannot really stand nazis whining about oppression. I live in a hotspot of them.I know they do it a lot. I also know, they are the first, to supress anything they do not like, if they are in a position of power.

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#158

Post by YEwSdObPQT »

scotty79 wrote: post #145
YEwSdObPQT wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's ok because the thoughts they ban are not novel, they had their time and were thoroughly executed on. "Because it is not new it is okay". Sorry that isn't very convincing. The issue is that if you ban one set of ideas you have set a precedent to ban other ideas that aren't as odious. Using the same justification you can criminalise believing in the Earth is flat or any other fringe idea. > You'll have hard time…

> Sorry that isn't very convincing. If you the idea is crap and it proved that it's crap by leading to genocide why would we award it any protection? Do tou think next time around, it will lead to something beneficial to mankind? > Using the same justification you can criminalise believing in the Earth is flat or any other fringe idea. It did not lead to genocide. The first time it does I hope it's banned to hell. >…

> If you the idea is crap and it proved that it's crap by leading to genocide why would we award it any protection?

Lots of communists say that the Soviet Union wasn't "real communism". Yet I never hear the same outcry against that.

I am not saying it should be "protected". I am saying that individual liberties should be protected and one of the most important (after private property rights) is the freedom to speak you mind.

> Do tou think next time around, it will lead to something beneficial to mankind?

No.

> It did not lead to genocide. The first time it does I hope it's banned to hell.

When people questioned the idea that the Earth was the centre of the universe people were punished for such ideas. So that has kind of already happened.

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#159

Post by YEwSdObPQT »

hutzlibu wrote: post #157
YEwSdObPQT wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't think, there are limits to the things I should be allowed to say about you? No. The only concession I would consider is a call to violence if there is an real and immediate threat . Not internet death threats. The second I may concede would be defamation under a very strict standard e.g. You were claiming someone broke a law. > Or about the things I think other people should do to you? People can say anyt…

"People can say anything they like to me or about me. What they cannot do is vandalise my property, take my property or assault me." So can "they" openly say, that they think, you deserve to be robbed and assaulted? And for the sake of it, let "them" be a famous antifa influencer, so you can expect that other people do as their influencer told them is the right thing? I don't think so. This is the line I mean, which…

> So can "they" openly say, that they think, you deserve to be robbed and assaulted?

Yes

> And for the sake of it, let "them" be a famous antifa influencer, so you can expect that other people do as their influencer told them is the right thing?

If people are likely to assault someone because someone else told them over social media. They would have probably done it anyway.

> You claimed they killed more than the nazis. Which is a claim, I heard before quite often, but usually without proper sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_...

It is literally like the second or third result on DDG.

Re: Telegram now censoring channels in Germany for “violating local laws”

#160

Post by delecti »

_-david-_ wrote: post #135
delecti wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty "no true Scottsman". Some of the Ottawa protesters are waving swastika flags. If it walks like a duck and waves duck flags. Sources citing the presence of swastika flags, (linking multiple because a couple are paywalled): https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/world/canada/ottawa-truck... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/thousands-protest-covid... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ottawa-covid-trucker-…

The person you are talking to is talking about US free speech. I am not sure if you are aware of this, but Ottawa is not in the US.

The person I'm replying to referred to Trudeau talking about truckers. The trucker protests relevant to Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau are happening in Ottawa.
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