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Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#141

Post by sumeno »

dev_tty01 wrote: post #122
sumeno wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s trivial to verify someone’s position at Apple with a reference check. Only if they left on good terms.

If no one will offer an opinion on a former employee, then you have the information you need.

Not every negative departure is the departee's fault.

As an obvious example, if a POC experienced frequent racism at a company they might leave a company without having anyone they would want to use as a reference even though THEY weren't the problem.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#142

Post by tristor »

eloisant wrote: post #113
sly010 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can try (especially if you know ahead of time) but background check is done by a third party. Recruiters and interviewers don't care until background check flags it. You can try to be upfront about it, but it just creates a weird situation and they will defer to the 3rd party background check anyway. Any evidence you may share with the background check company is not present on the final background report (since…

Yes, what I imagine would happen is that the background check company will contact you, you'll send them your last paycheck with your title on it and be done with it.

Titles are almost never on paychecks, so there wouldn't be any such thing as a "last paycheck with your title on it." Also, a paycheck contains pay information, which is something you cannot legally be required to provide to a new/prospective employer, which the background check company is acting on behalf of.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#143

Post by snowwrestler »

tptacek wrote: post #137
snowwrestler wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would make sense if people’s titles were “associate” while employed at Apple, but they are not. It’s the title change that seems weird and vindictive. It’s not like Apple has to report a title at all to external databases.

It's a generic word that means "you worked here". Which is the point of the parent comment: it's a way of confirming that someone was an employee without revealing their title, a la Intel.

The generic word for someone who is employed is employee.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#144

Post by treis »

tinalumfoil wrote: post #96

If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine? WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics. If I want my employer to know what number Apple ass…

Future employers will ask your level and if Apple tells them something different they're going to think you're lying. I can see it being problematic when applying to Government or enterprise roles. They will do their due diligence and might rescind an offer if they find a discrepancy.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#145

Post by daniel_reetz »

tristor wrote: post #110
_fat_santa wrote: post #6

Wouldn't there be other ways for you to prove you were a "Level 4" or whatever at Apple and not an associate? An offer letter from Apple? Or just the totality of circumstances in general. If say you're interviewing for a "Sr Engineer" position, you're just not going to have an instance where the candidate shows experience and knowledge but doesn't get hired because some record from Lexis Nexis says that he was an "as…

> Wouldn't there be other ways for you to prove you were a "Level 4" or whatever at Apple and not an associate? An offer letter from Apple? Having gone through this with several employers, the largest company doing this verification is HireRight. HireRight is BEYOND incompetent at every single level. They refuse documentation such as offer letters on company letterhead to prove a title. The only documentation they ac…

Can confirm. And Apple used HireRight when they hired me.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#146

Post by reaperducer »

If this causes companies to re-think their reliance on automated hiring practices, I'm OK with that.

HR is supposed to be "Human" Resources, not "We punched your ID number into a computer and it told us you're undesirable."

Or worse — companies that buy into systems that automatically screen applicants. If your company is so overwhelmed by incoming job applicants, then hire more HR people. Or maybe do what people have done for the last 500 years — "Sorry, but we're not hiring right now."

Automated resume screening systems are rarely correct, and while they may filter out a percentage of unqualified applicants, they also routinely filter out the best people for the job. That's why every job counselor tells you the best thing to do is to find a human being in the company to make contact with.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#147

Post by tinalumfoil »

smrz wrote: post #130
tinalumfoil wrote: post #96

If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine? WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics. If I want my employer to know what number Apple ass…

I cannot wait to check back in with you when you're trying to get a new job and negotiating salary. > If I want my employer to know what number Apple assigned me, I’ll tell them. Literally this article is about employers being like "hmm you told me this number but we don't believe you because Apple says its wrong"

Maybe, but my experience working mostly at smaller companies is that nobody really cares. If you say you’re a level X they’ll say, “okay prove it. Demonstrate through your accomplishments and knowledge you’re a level X” not “Prove it. Show us your documentation, citizen.”

I also can’t imagine verifying or asking HR to verify someone’s level or salary. They’d start questioning if I understood the point of the interview.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#148

Post by Avshalom »

pbronez wrote: post #105
tedivm wrote: post #18

I think it's really important to note that Apple does not have to share their database with these third party companies, but not only do they choose to do so they also make sure the information is wrong. Apple is, essentially, being unethical on two levels. They're selling or sharing employee information, and they're purposefully making it so that information is wrong. I want to stress this- I ask during the intervie…

> Apple does not have to share their database with these third party companies Also, those third parties don't have to take Apple's word. Equifax and Lexis-Nexis (named in the article) are selling a data product, which is undermined by Apple's bad behavior. Shouldn't these companies have an incentive to provide accurate data? This is where it gets interesting. I looked up the products in question, and they are VERY c…

>> Shouldn't these companies have an incentive to provide accurate data?

If their information about me might be wrong they can charge me to keep an eye on it.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#149

Post by joshstrange »

snowwrestler wrote: post #140
furyg3 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, can a future employer request my past salary information from InVerify (or another service) without my approval or permission?

Yes, this is why one should not lie about one’s former salary. I have lost candidates over this; HR caught them in a lie and blocked them on integrity grounds.

Maybe if companies didn't attempt to lowball candidates this wouldn't be an issue? My past compensation is none of a new company's business, all that matters is the number I'm willing to work for. Since companies refuse to give salary ranges often (see: number of jobs not available to people in CO) I see no reason to come to the table at a disadvantage.

Re: Every employee who leaves Apple becomes an ‘associate’

#150

Post by cma »

corry wrote: post #132
tinalumfoil wrote: post #96

If Apple considers level 1 and 5 to both be associates and doesn’t share more than that that’s… fine? WaPo says this can be a 6 figure difference in compensation but frankly why should a future employer get to know how much I make? Maybe I’m a level 3 but deserved to be a level 4. Maybe I’m a level 5 but actually a level 2 that’s just really good at office politics. If I want my employer to know what number Apple ass…

I can see a weird sort of logic to Apple. Why would they share their judgement about the level of an ex-employee with a potential rival company (rival in case of talent perhaps also product)? Let the employee say "I was Level 5 @ Apple" and have the hiring company verify that the person is at whatever level that implies . Why should Apple allow its rivals piggyback on its own levelling system?

Undermining everyone who leaves is cult leadership behavior.
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