Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#41

Post by ltfey » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 1:41 PM UTC

ekidd wrote: post #28

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate is weird. The tendency is to have an in-group and out group, but that is just normal human behavior. Nothing ground-breaking here. But to say that work is not demanding and evaluation always political is very big generalization. Some hard projects go to people that can handle them ( or can't if you don't like them ). When that big project is over, there seems to be a very clear indication, who MVPs are ( ev…

> But to say that work is not demanding and evaluation always political is very big generalization. Some hard projects go to people that can handle them ( or can't if you don't like them ). When that big project is over, there seems to be a very clear indication, who MVPs are ( even if they do not have 'in-group' status ). From what I've witnessed consulting, this varies greatly by company size. I once heard a Vice P…

I agree with what you're saying. However, I disagree on one bit:

But there, most of the people will the ability to "save the day" will usually be in upper management. The big tech companies may be an exception this: Google has their two "level 11s", and Microsoft had the massively talented team that they used to catch up to Netscape Navigator in the 90s.

The tech companies are not exceptions. You don't become a "level 11" at Google without playing political hardball. In a big company, the CEOs won't even know who you are, certainly not enough to invest in your career or give you opportunities (such as taking on Netscape in the '90s), unless you're willing to go lawful evil and collect some scalps.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#42

Post by em-bee » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 1:50 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #36

em-bee wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i have kids. the age difference matters for the development of each individual kid, but it us rather useless as a measure to compare the development of different kids. in the first few years, the development of each kid is so different that no two kids of the same age are alike. you can have a four year old with the maturity of a two year old, or a three year old going on five. a wider age range allows children with…

This I can agree with. I benefited a lot from having older cousins around. At the moment I have a kid who is asking me about chemistry, and I can't just wait 5 years for him to get to that age where they teach people specifically chemistry (as opposed to general science). There's no reason I can't tell a 9 year old about valencies and that kind of thing, so why does school wait with it?

i think once you go beyond the basics of math, reading and writing, the problem is to order all the remaining material into some sort of sequence, but it matters less what the actual sequence is. you could start with chemistry earlier, and anyone homeschooling may do just that, but this is going back to the exact problem that started this sub-thread: schools being designed to teach everyone at the same pace.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#43

Post by ltfey » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #26

ltfey wrote: post #13

School is a flawed meritocracy, but it actually makes efforts to be one. Corporate is a deliberate non-meritocracy whose purpose is to ratify the inadequate descendants of an existing oligarchy as meritocrats. Mussolini didn't make the trains run on time; he punished people who said the trains were late. Corporate is the same: meritocracy by assertion--and only by assertion. In school, you learn that hard work is rew…

You have it exactly opposite in almost every way. Corporate attempts to be meritocratic. They have every incentive to be. Executives want to hire the more effective people to perform tasks so they can maximize profits. They can be greedy or stupid, but not both. They can hire their friends and family, sure, and sometimes they do. But they have an incentive to make decisions on merit otherwise they would go out of bus…

No post body was provided.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#44

Post by stared » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

ltfey wrote: post #13

School is a flawed meritocracy, but it actually makes efforts to be one. Corporate is a deliberate non-meritocracy whose purpose is to ratify the inadequate descendants of an existing oligarchy as meritocrats. Mussolini didn't make the trains run on time; he punished people who said the trains were late. Corporate is the same: meritocracy by assertion--and only by assertion. In school, you learn that hard work is rew…

The critical difference is simple: for students, the hierarchy is flat. In particular, there is no risk that a student gets promoted to being a teacher (even if they know more).

Even among teachers, it isn't the case - there is internal politics as in every workplace.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#45

Post by BobbyJo » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 1:56 PM UTC

ltfey wrote: post #43

bko wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have it exactly opposite in almost every way. Corporate attempts to be meritocratic. They have every incentive to be. Executives want to hire the more effective people to perform tasks so they can maximize profits. They can be greedy or stupid, but not both. They can hire their friends and family, sure, and sometimes they do. But they have an incentive to make decisions on merit otherwise they would go out of bus…

Quoted post unavailable.

> profits aren't the true goal...

Ok, we can all stop there and go home. This person knows more than every economist and game-theorist on the planet.

>They're all kinda the same, though, and the system is designed that way.

I take it you haven't had many jobs I've worked at 5 different corporations and this is just verifiably wrong. 'The system' you're referencing is voluntary exchange, and it's not designed, it emerges from the concept of private property.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#46

Post by nsv » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 1:56 PM UTC

swayvil wrote: post #29

ltfey wrote: post #13

School is a flawed meritocracy, but it actually makes efforts to be one. Corporate is a deliberate non-meritocracy whose purpose is to ratify the inadequate descendants of an existing oligarchy as meritocrats. Mussolini didn't make the trains run on time; he punished people who said the trains were late. Corporate is the same: meritocracy by assertion--and only by assertion. In school, you learn that hard work is rew…

Social media is very much like corporate in that arbitrary assertion backed with absolute power (downvoting, censorship, banning, cancelling...) runs everything. And anything can be asserted. Up is down, black is white, beautiful is ugly. And you'd better go along with it or you're out. Call it hive-corporatism. It seems to be a natural social formation.

At least social media has an element of democracy to it.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#47

Post by bko » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:06 PM UTC

ltfey wrote: post #43

bko wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have it exactly opposite in almost every way. Corporate attempts to be meritocratic. They have every incentive to be. Executives want to hire the more effective people to perform tasks so they can maximize profits. They can be greedy or stupid, but not both. They can hire their friends and family, sure, and sometimes they do. But they have an incentive to make decisions on merit otherwise they would go out of bus…

Quoted post unavailable.

I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously with statements like this.

> Class solidarity and positional maintenance are the real objectives

Who's organizing all the world's corporate leaders? Who's preventing from non-infiltrated people from starting businesses? This is extremely conspiratorial

> Companies will do bad things to make a profit, and on rare occasions they even do good things to make a profit

Really? Rare occasions? Do you deal with any private businesses in your every day? 99% of my interactions with private businesses is positive. How can this be taken as a serious statement?

> Big companies don't go out of business because they're out-competed. They do so because their management loses the faith of the upper class and can no longer access investment, clients, resources, or political advantages.

Who's doing this coordination? Blockbuster drops the ball on streaming and Netflix came out with a better product and consumer tastes shifted away from in-store movie rentals to digital. I'm sure there's some conspiracy theory that Blockbuster execs offended "the upper class" so it was decided they need to go away.

I'm trying to read your comments in good-faith but I find it increasingly difficult to do so due to the conspiratorial nature of your argument.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#48

Post by Buttons840 » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

mrslave wrote: post #6

actually_a_dog wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're describing is called "mastery learning," and it is a thing. Essentially, you can't progress from one module to the next without a certain minimum score on the current module (that's the "mastery" part). It works well in subjects like math, where there are a lot of dependencies between later and earlier modules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastery_learning

Where can I do a (respectable) on-line degree in this structure? While I'm fantasizing, the second unrealistic requirement is affordable. ;-)

WGU. Online, accredited, self paced (must maintain a minimum pace though), and relatively cheap.

Wish they had math degrees.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#49

Post by ltfey » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:10 PM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #45

ltfey wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> profits aren't the true goal... Ok, we can all stop there and go home. This person knows more than every economist and game-theorist on the planet. >They're all kinda the same, though, and the system is designed that way. I take it you haven't had many jobs I've worked at 5 different corporations and this is just verifiably wrong. 'The system' you're referencing is voluntary exchange, and it's not designed, it emer…

No post body was provided.

Re: Life, school, and the 80:20 rule (2019)

#50

Post by verve_rat » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 2:11 PM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #45

ltfey wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> profits aren't the true goal... Ok, we can all stop there and go home. This person knows more than every economist and game-theorist on the planet. >They're all kinda the same, though, and the system is designed that way. I take it you haven't had many jobs I've worked at 5 different corporations and this is just verifiably wrong. 'The system' you're referencing is voluntary exchange, and it's not designed, it emer…

Profit for the firm might be the goal for the firm as an entity, such that it is, but the goal for each individual is their own self interest.

The worker wants a pay rise, the manager wants a promotion, the CEO wants a better gig at the next company. None of that is a goal of making more money for the company.