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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#841

Post by krageon »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #468
notacoward wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of withdrawal seems to be happening in many cultures. In Japan it's called hikikomori . I forget what it's called in Italy, but I know I've read about it. Here it's the same, except ours tend to be more violent.

I don’t know enough about Japan to say anything on this matter but at least in Italy, unlike America, it’s fairly common for adults to live with their parents until married, without social stigma (well, if they have a job).

> without social stigma

Is this really true? You are describing the quintessential basement-dweller, which is not exactly a rosy stereotype.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#842

Post by onion2k »

throwaway46jt7 wrote: post #794
mbfg wrote: post #695

I think a big part of the despair is the obvious difference between what children are taught is the american dream vs what the american reality is. We are told america is the best place on earth with all the doors open to you to be rich. That all other forms of government are flawed and we have excellence here everywhere you look. And then you look at reality and see something else. Sure there are pockets of excellen…

> We are told america is the best place on earth with all the doors open to you to be rich. That all other forms of government are flawed and we have excellence here everywhere you look. What other countries are great compared to America? With all its flaws America is the only country where you can dream of building spaceships, create multi billion dollar tech companies in less than a decade. Any ideology that forces…

With all its flaws America is the only country where you can dream of building spaceships...

Pedantically, literally anyone anywhere can dream of building spaceships. But let's examine that claim on the basis of people who have actually done it.

- Musk has, but he's South African.

- Bezos crossed the Kármán line so he's done it, but he hasn't reached orbit yet so calling New Shepherd a 'spaceship' is a slightly dubious claim.

- Branson hasn't either and he's British anyway.

- Carmack isn't in the news for space stuff any more, so maybe he's given up?

Looking at the evidence of 'billionaires and their space toys', I think 'not Americans' are a little ahead.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#843

Post by wolverine876 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #437
wolverine876 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And having very few adults to talk to, no status, no career advancement (in fact, the opposite), and little recognition.

Most people do not care about their jobs. And they have jobs, not careers. They work because they get paid. Occasionally they get a brief flicker of satisfaction. More often they enjoy the company of their co-workers. Occasionally they hate their jobs so much that they engage in unhealthy behaviors s as a coping mechanism, like alcoholism, or they quit. Basically everyone who doesn’t stay heavily involved in their pr…

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, but those are pretty extreme and sweeping claims. Where do they come from? Here's some data from Gallup, which seems to strongly disagree with at least some aspects of the parent. It shows that every year, going back to 1993, over 80% report being completely or somewhat satisfied with their jobs.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1720/Work-Work-Place.aspx

On the Internet these days I often see contructed claims of extreme despair - about finding a partner, jobs, war, democracy, crime, etc. etc. In a way it matches an older rhetoric of making brazen, extreme, baseless statements that frame the conversation (around the baseless claims rather than the issue at hand), inflame it, and disrupt people who disagree. It's time to think about whose interests the despair serves.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#844

Post by ksec »

snerbles wrote: post #820
ksec wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of the media, politics, ideology, just any one of them could get ugly in a hurry. And if you have all three, that is not a good start. Although I am glad this topic is finally getting "some" attention.

If only because it's posing an existential threat to society and the very powers that be that are contributing to this mess. Given current trends I expect things to get much, much worse.

>Given current trends I expect things to get much, much worse.

Unfortunately I agree.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#845

Post by wolverine876 »

fuzzer37 wrote: post #444
wolverine876 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so bad? IME, you can easily ignore all the fatalism (popular to feel on every topic) - pretend it isn't there - and do what you want.

An economy that increasingly gets worse and worse for newer generations? The destruction of the planet? The decline of Western Democracy? I guess if you bury your head in the sand and never pay attention to anything then I guess it's not that bad.

You are talking about broad trends that, first of all, we have all the tools to fix, and second, probably don't affect you much individually right now (and maybe not ever). Again, don't sit home thinking about how terrible it is, just get out and start moving.

> if you bury your head in the sand

Conversation doesn't need to be so bad either; we could have a constructive one.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#846

Post by novok »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #419

> we must stop defining masculinity as necessarily toxic I know "toxic masculinity" is a dumb academic term that never should have become a slogan, but Andrew, Mr. Yang, that's not what it means. It's like "async functions". Not all functions are async. It's okay if a function is sync. Adjectives modify nouns to make them refer to a specific subset. It's fine to be masculine. I don't know what it means to be masculin…

Sophisticated ideology or ideas when spread to the masses suffer an oversimplification effect. What was once used to describe toxic behaviors that men can have once disseminated into the public transform into masculinity = toxic. This spreads as a meme and turns into a form of bigotry. The author is trying to fight against the public meaning it's transformed into.

It's much like dealing with hackers who take umbrage with it's public definition meaning computer criminal, vs. the more sophisticated it thing it really means, and simultaneously being in denial about the transformation that happened many decades ago.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#847

Post by wolverine876 »

hackerfromthefu wrote: post #644
wolverine876 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an assured-sounding statement, but what is it based on? I have role models that aren't my gender; it makes no difference to me.

I recommend the book 'Families and how to survive them' which covers human developmental psychology and has detailed sections on gendered role models. It may push a few woke buttons, but doesn't everything?

Apparently your buttons were pushed, and you felt you had to inflame the conversation and degrade people with different opinions.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#848

Post by wolverine876 »

throwaway212135 wrote: post #348
wolverine876 wrote: post #341

> On a cultural level, we must stop defining masculinity as necessarily toxic and start promoting positive masculinity. There is no need to tell people how to behave 'on a cultural level'. It has nothing to do with anything other than some people trying to impose their beliefs on everyeone else.

Who are you to define what masculinity is positive or negative? You are playing right into this narrative that masculinity is toxic.

Where did I define anything?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#849

Post by wolverine876 »

scarmig wrote: post #398
wolverine876 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the ball is firmly in the woman’s court now. Women have most of the advantages (education, societal promotion, fit in better with our institutions) I don't think we at all can define what individuals should do based on their gender; that is sort of the point. They can be who and what they want to be. Maybe by some theory women have most of the advantages, but the outcomes clearly indicate otherwise. Look at…

You can look at the elite in society and see an over-representation of men, but it's important to also look at the most downtrodden and worse off in society. The homeless; people who are the victims of violent crime; people who die in wars; people who die working shitty jobs; people who are so hopeless that they commit suicide. Perhaps even looking at things like lifespan. Men's results are bimodal: if women are forc…

People keep repeating this claim, but of course that doesn't signal truth. Is there research behind it?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#850

Post by phtrivier »

> Here’s the simple truth I’ve heard from many men: We need to be needed. We imagine ourselves as builders, soldiers, workers, brothers — part of something bigger than ourselves. We deal with idleness terribly.

Interesting to read that from a vocal proponent of UBI - which would, by design, allow people, including men, _not_ to get a job.

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