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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#591

Post by rpmisms »

noetic_techy wrote: post #536

Sorry WP, too little too late. I don't think the "mainstream" has fully caught on yet, but all those disaffected men are getting nothing from these empty "we see there's a problem" articles and empty half-acknowledgements, because the entire political and academic system is now fully aligned against them. Lots of men these days are all turning to Red Pill content online whether you agree or not because its the only c…

Anecdotally, Jordan Peterson didn't fix my mental health, but I had a good dad and a sense of direction growing up. He's seriously helped my friends who have absent or abusive fathers. Teaching men about their duties in society and to themselves is crucial.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#592

Post by joshuamorton »

cperciva wrote: post #565
Spivak wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toxic masculinity is literally masculine behaviors that end up harming the doer or the people around them — that’s why it’s called toxic. If you think it’s too politically charged then unhealthy masculinity is fine too. Toxic masculinity is not solely men’s fault. It’s a systematic issue that is perpetuated by everyone. Unhealthy independence is a good example. From the individual it’s “I don’t need anyone”, refusing…

The idea that men always want sex is routinely described as "toxic masculinity". Tell me, when I was sexually assaulted by a woman who told me that I should want what she was doing and there was something wrong with me if I didn't, who was being masculine?

I think you're maybe misunderstanding something about "toxic masculinity" here. Because what you're describing is exactly what I'd call a perfect example of toxic masculinity.

The conceptualization that men always want sex is false, but like it is a stereotype that exists. That someone used that stereotype about masculinity to try and justify assault (to you, perhaps to themselves also?) is what makes such stereotypes toxic. No one in a situation needs to be doing a masculinity for toxic masculinity to be present.

> who was being masculine?

I think it becomes clear very quickly that this is not really the question you want to be asking here. The implication here is that actually, it was the person who was assaulting you who was being masculine when they assaulted you, because they violated your consent. That's not a trait we should be associating with masculinity either (and so, to be clear, my answer to this question is something like "neither" or, "its unspecified", as masculinity shouldn't be a thing we choose to associate with sexual assault).

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#593

Post by hypertele-Xii »

nautilius wrote: post #580
rayiner wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can point to the decline of organized religion and with it traditional gender roles, but then what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe? As far as I can tell, Europe isn’t all that post-Christian. Even countries that have low levels of people actively practicing religion still carry a strong cultural legacy from Christianity: https://www.europenowjournal.org/2019/10/02/the-catholic-nes... Co…

Note that 'cultural legacy' is completely different from 'organized religion'. Celebrating 'Christmas' as a family get-together is completely different from celebrating the arrival of the messiah and deriving your complete moral compass from that.

Not completely different, the messianic morals are embedded in the ceremony by design: Sharing, caring, family, food, etc. These aren't incidental, they're the whole point. Sure the specific historical person, i.e. the messiah, blurs over time, as probably do the ceremonial activities, but surely they retain some of the original moral ideals.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#594

Post by skeaker »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #581
symlinkk wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men.

> The selection process is on Tinder, not the maternity ward, and the bar is brutally high there for men. I’ve been seeing this exact trope repeated more and more on HN lately: Some vague assertion that Tinder is the only place for matchmaking and that only a tiny number of men are getting all of the matches. It’s an objectively ridiculous claim for anyone who has experience in the real world where, yes, even “normal…

Genuinely asking, roughly how old are you? I'm in my early-mid twenties and of the ~100 people I keep in touch with my age range from high school, there has been one child born (by accident if the rumors are true) and zero marriages. Of the dozen or so people I keep in regular contact with I've gathered that this is not for lack of trying, either. Obviously there is bias here as this is all anecdotal, but I'm very curious as to how unique this situation is.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#595

Post by gunfighthacksaw »

Spivak wrote: post #502
cperciva wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between "toxic masculinity" and "asynchronous functions". Asynchronous functions are still functions, but there's nothing masculine about "toxic masculinity".

Toxic masculinity is literally masculine behaviors that end up harming the doer or the people around them — that’s why it’s called toxic. If you think it’s too politically charged then unhealthy masculinity is fine too. Toxic masculinity is not solely men’s fault. It’s a systematic issue that is perpetuated by everyone. Unhealthy independence is a good example. From the individual it’s “I don’t need anyone”, refusing…

Who decided that being the lone wolf uber stoic was a bad thing in the first place and therefore deserves the toxic appellation?

I’m sure in certain environments such an approach to life is the optimal strategy.

Similarly with “men need to share emotions” but perfectly legitimate emotions associated with masculinity (like anger) are toxic.

Who came up with this stuff and why?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#596

Post by amanaplanacanal »

bradlys wrote: post #546
mrjangles wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>huge amount of effort over many years into online dating My god I hope you aren't talking about tinder are you? You are totally clueless about women and dating if that is what you are talking about. Go out to bars, talk to people, do activities and meet lots of people. stop doing 'online' dating (of any kind) Seriously, myself and everyone I know found that upon reaching 33 the interest from women in their 20s sky r…

> Seriously, myself and everyone I know found that upon reaching 33 the interest from women in their 20s sky rockets. You are definitely doing something wrong, not society. Huge YMMV. A lot of us are physically similar to what we were in our 20s but I definitely peaked when I was around 25. It’s been a steady downhill trend since then and the interest from women has gone completely downhill. Mind you - I’m not exactl…

Totally don't understand this. I'm in my mid sixties and have no trouble finding wonderful women. Am I just extra lucky?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#597

Post by prawn »

N1H1L wrote: post #301
ytwombly wrote: post #150

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

The purpose of a man's life is meaning and the search for it. For years, centuries even, this meaning in a man's life was provided by being a provider. This order was enforced through society. And you can use society and religion interchangeably here because the distinction between the two is only a century or two old. And this order enforced the role of a child-bearer and nurturer to women. Obviously, such an order…

What's stopping these men being a provider for themselves, their partner, family or children?

I'd agree that meaning/purpose is part of this puzzle, but there are still children needing a provider and partners who either expect a fulltime breadwinner or find some other balance.

My guess is the perceived opportunity of improving your lot in life has declined and males, on the whole, have struggled with motivation as a result. I suspect housing affordability is part of that.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#598

Post by foogazi »

symlinkk wrote: post #501
mrjangles wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>huge amount of effort over many years into online dating My god I hope you aren't talking about tinder are you? You are totally clueless about women and dating if that is what you are talking about. Go out to bars, talk to people, do activities and meet lots of people. stop doing 'online' dating (of any kind) Seriously, myself and everyone I know found that upon reaching 33 the interest from women in their 20s sky r…

The majority of couples meet on Tinder these days. Your advice is outdated

Source ?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#599

Post by rpmisms »

ask_b123 wrote: post #467
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynical take is that after dry running it in, ahem, certain sub-groups of the population the powers that be liked the results so much they decided everyone should get it.

What do you mean?

It's public knowledge that the CIA pumped crack cocaine into black communities, which... well. Crack is bad, kids.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#600

Post by valdiorn »

mrjangles wrote: post #474
awaythrow483 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 33, Ive got a fairly high IQ, make $340k in a STEM field and enough to retire tomorrow, I'm not unattractive, and put a huge amount of effort over many years into online dating. I've pretty much given up on dating. I have a total inability to find anyone I'm interested in that is interested in me. When I was younger and I wanted to go to bars and get drunk and be an idiot I had plenty of attractive sexual partner…

>huge amount of effort over many years into online dating My god I hope you aren't talking about tinder are you? You are totally clueless about women and dating if that is what you are talking about. Go out to bars, talk to people, do activities and meet lots of people. stop doing 'online' dating (of any kind) Seriously, myself and everyone I know found that upon reaching 33 the interest from women in their 20s sky r…

Literally everyone I know who is around my age (~34), if I ask them how they met their partner, the will say they met their partner online, myself included.

"go out to bars" is advise that's about 20 years out of date, mate. However, being successful at online dating is non-intuitive and takes skill.

Of course, if you're in your mid 30's and you want to bang college chicks half your age with daddy issues, maybe "going to bars" is the way to go...

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