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Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#131
post #112
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scientist rarely keep the data secret. It's the basis of peer review. In a better world, that would be true. In this world, it's not. Most of the climate science data that Phil Jones and others have worked with, and most of their models are secret. It is THIS that makes me keep at least one ear open for the "anti-" side in the climate debate. Real science SHOULD be conducted out in the open.

The models are secret... wait, seriously??

Short answer is no, long answer is sort of. The way in which data / code is released is a complex issue. However, if your willing to wait a reasonable amount of time AND pay for the costs involved you can get just about everything produced.

Still, in the larger context validating someone's data is basically worthless activity. It's far more important to go out and collect new data, build a new model, run a new simulation, and report those results than it is to try and shortcut the process. The data deluge is making it way to easy for people to validate bad science using the same bad data / model as someone else. Fundamental assumptions in statistics break down when you use the same 10 coin flips to substitute for the 10 million coin flips that cost more than your willing to pay for.

PS: The failure to collect significant quantity's of new data is a hallmark of fringe / bad science. If you really think global warming is a joke or you can be more healthy by eating coco puffs then go collect that data and do your analysis and see if someone can poke holes in your process.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#132
post #50

If this result is valid then it would mean that neutrinos are capable of traveling .0025% faster than light. There was a supernova that we observed in 1987 (SN 1987) that occurred 168,000 light years away from us. A neutrino burst was observed in 3 different labs about 3 hours before the light was observed. If neutrinos are capable of traveling .0025% faster than the speed of light then why would we observe these neu…

those neutrino's could be from anywhere in the universe. we measured them 3 hours before the light of the supernova because we were looking for them at that time

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#133
post #112
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scientist rarely keep the data secret. It's the basis of peer review. In a better world, that would be true. In this world, it's not. Most of the climate science data that Phil Jones and others have worked with, and most of their models are secret. It is THIS that makes me keep at least one ear open for the "anti-" side in the climate debate. Real science SHOULD be conducted out in the open.

The models are secret... wait, seriously??

After about 20 million requests for their data and models by people who were motivated by god to disprove climate science, they got a little less open.

I don't think they're "secret" i think they assume anyone they haven't heard of who is asking for the info is a troll.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#134
post #89
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientist rarely keep the data secret. It's the basis of peer review. There's a reason why open access journals (PLoS One) are getting so popular, scientists want to be known and publish. In my experience, ego is a currency much more valuable than money in academic circles.

> Scientist rarely keep the data secret. It's the basis of peer review. In a better world, that would be true. In this world, it's not. Most of the climate science data that Phil Jones and others have worked with, and most of their models are secret. It is THIS that makes me keep at least one ear open for the "anti-" side in the climate debate. Real science SHOULD be conducted out in the open.

IPCC AR4 models all listed with lots of information and links (although some now dead): http://www-pcmdi.llnl.gov/ipcc/model_documentation/ipcc_mode...

For example, the three models developed by NASA: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/modelE/ar4/

Direct links to each model + code + datasets:

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modelE/ - with nightly code snapshots here: http://simplex.giss.nasa.gov/snapshots/

http://aom.giss.nasa.gov/ - with direct access to code here: http://aom.giss.nasa.gov/code.html and here: http://aom.giss.nasa.gov/code4x3.html

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modelii/ - seemingly work on this has now been merged with the ModelE simulation.

Lots of other code and data is available if you take the time to find it ... and then considerably more time to understand it.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#135
post #89
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientist rarely keep the data secret. It's the basis of peer review. There's a reason why open access journals (PLoS One) are getting so popular, scientists want to be known and publish. In my experience, ego is a currency much more valuable than money in academic circles.

> Scientist rarely keep the data secret. It's the basis of peer review. In a better world, that would be true. In this world, it's not. Most of the climate science data that Phil Jones and others have worked with, and most of their models are secret. It is THIS that makes me keep at least one ear open for the "anti-" side in the climate debate. Real science SHOULD be conducted out in the open.

No. In this world, it is true that scientists rarely keep the data secret, more often than not, silly conspiracy theorist views notwithstanding.

Business-sponsored science is very often secret, but please don't attempt to paint, as the parent commenter disingenuously attempts to do, that scientists are the root of data secrecy.

There have been now six separate inquiries into the misguided, corporation driven, politically-motivated and frankly dumb charges that climate science data is faulty or is associated with some kind of scientific misconduct. All six separate inquiries indicated it was not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_co...

Moreover, scientific organizations are overwhelmingly making changes that makes their data even more accessible:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Data+without+the+doubts%3A+the...

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... found the speed of 3 GeV neutrinos to be 1.000051(29) c. What does the "(29)" in "1.000051(29) c" mean?

I'm not sure, but I think it represents uncertainty over the last digits. So 1.000051(29) would be equivalent to 1.000051 +- 0.000029.

Yes, that is what it means. :)

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#137
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not secret then, but to be released at a later date. Or released in one of those journals that most of cannot access.

There's often cases of the data literally being measured in tera or peta bytes. Releasing the raw data isn't always feasible.

[deleted]

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#138
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not secret then, but to be released at a later date. Or released in one of those journals that most of cannot access.

There's often cases of the data literally being measured in tera or peta bytes. Releasing the raw data isn't always feasible.

I also assumed that the storage/bandwidth/computational costs of particle accelerator data sets would make open access practically useless

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#139

Similar results seem to have already been obtained in the past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino#Speed QUOTE In the early 1980s, first measurements of neutrino speed were done using pulsed pion beams (produced by pulsed proton beams hitting a target). The pions decayed producing neutrinos, and the neutrino interactions observed within a time window in a detector at a distance were consistent with the speed of lig…

> ... found the speed of 3 GeV neutrinos to be 1.000051(29) c. What does the "(29)" in "1.000051(29) c" mean?

That means that the last two digits of the number 1.00005129 are uncertain.

For example, they measured 1.00005129c, but maybe their uncertainty is +-0.0000001c. The last digits are unreliable, but are the measurements they got

EDIT: below, its claimed that those digits ARE the uncertainty. That quite possibly is it; my answer is from what i remember from uncertainty in my 1st year Physics course.

Re: Speed-of-light experiments yield baffling result at LHC

#140
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the speed at which photons travel, by definition, the speed of light? And as for the "c" in e=mc^2, doesn't this suddenly make "c" an unknown constant? Doesn't the fact that "c" changes suddenly change the values of the other variables in that equation as well? That seems pretty fundamental to me...

As I understand it, Einstein's work rests on there being a fundamental maximum 'speed' and it seemed to him as though the speed of photons was that limit, so 'speed of light' became synonymous with this maximum. But it doesn't necessarily have to be so. So if there's something faster, it changes our understanding of photons but not the existence of this fundamental maximum speed. As you note, our efforts to measure c…

Yes, it is -the- basic assumptions for special relativity. And no, it doesn't just change our understanding of photons, it changes everything, since it's all connected. All theories I've looked at so far have (at least in higher versions) incorporate relativitity.

(Another basic assumption, this time for general relativity, is the equality of inertial and gravitational mass, which is not a self-evident thing. However, so far no difference has been found. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B6tv%C3%B6s_experiment)

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