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Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

economist.com

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Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#81

Post by ska »

Archelaos wrote: post #67
cjmcqueen wrote: post #37

As a partner of a person with a complete spinal cord injury, I appreciate these articles and the science being done by these researchers, it is truly a big and complex and worthwhile problem to solve. For most of us, I do want to suggest being careful when and how you mention research and articles like this to people in wheelchairs. Just be aware there are lots of different reasons why someone might be in a wheelchai…

Whenever I come across an article about walking robots for the military, I am asking myself: What about walking-chairs as a replacement for wheelchairs? Could that be a realistic solution to the access problematic? I am an absolute layperson regarding robotics. Can perhaps anybody with some background explain, what to expect here in the next few years?

It's not exactly my area but I have some related experience. I suspect the big problem with this is power use.

A standard issue wheelchair is very efficient on reasonably smooth and flat surfaces. Beyond the obvious problems with e.g. stairs, you can get around ok using just arm muscle power in lots of places.

This efficiency helps also if you can't use your arms or the slopes are more challenging. Reasonably sized and weighted batteries can extend your scope a huge amount in very practical ways.

As soon as you get away from wheeled locomotion though, the power needs become much more problematic. Not to mention the system complexity is orders of magnitude higher than a basic chair, with all that entails.

So short story, I wouldn't expect any significant impact in the next few years. It's possible that for some very specific use cases you'll see a bit more robotics in assistive technology. It's also possible that we'll learn some good tricks from robots about negotiating particular obstacles (e.g. curbs) which can be retrofitted to "dumb" conveyances and improve things...

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#82

Post by tomrod »

oalders wrote: post #75
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your last point, it's worth pointing out that making your built environment more easily traversible and usable for people with accessibility needs will pretty much always make it more easily traversible and usable for everyone . It's hard to appreciate this until you visit a country where they haven't spent decades making sure their elevators and hallways are wide enough, there are no unnecessary stupid steps, the…

I only truly appreciated this once I had was a pedestrian in a big city with a baby stroller. If a wheelchair can get somewhere, generally the stroller can do it as well. (At least a single wide stroller). Making places more accessible can have a positive impact on large parts of the population.

I've learned to take this approach with software as well. It just makes sense. While he's not universally accepted, Nassim Taleb makes compelling behavioral arguments for why this is better overall (in the context things like kosher salt and such)

https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#83

Post by krisoft »

londons_explore wrote: post #73
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> will a dollar spent on wheelchair ramps in buildings across the USA give a greater quality of life improvement to the average american than a dollar spent on medical research that tries to repair spinal nerves? Yes, I don’t know why this is even a question. Ramps support people who will never need spinal nerve repair. They support strollers, wheeled luggage, canes, crutches, fall risk folks, furniture movers, bike/…

But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. And when discovered, those treatments can be used forever, whereas ramps require constant spending for every new or renovated building. Both are 'obviously' better than the other, depending on what you look at. Therefore the decision really should be made with more data.

> But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps.

There is so much wrong with what you say. Just look at the person in the very article. He doesn't walk with a hippity-hoppity bouncy gait. He walks with the help of a wheeled walking frame. He needs the ramps and the handholds to get to places. Do you have a proposal on how to spend all the ramp money to "medical research" that away?

Look at any person who broke their leg and walks with a crutch, or a mother-to-be who is wobbly from all the extra weight of the baby, or an old person who needs a walking frame. Do you think if we just spend more money on medical research these conditions will go away?

How are you proposing to medical research away the need for a baby stroller?

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#84

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

londons_explore wrote: post #73
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> will a dollar spent on wheelchair ramps in buildings across the USA give a greater quality of life improvement to the average american than a dollar spent on medical research that tries to repair spinal nerves? Yes, I don’t know why this is even a question. Ramps support people who will never need spinal nerve repair. They support strollers, wheeled luggage, canes, crutches, fall risk folks, furniture movers, bike/…

But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. And when discovered, those treatments can be used forever, whereas ramps require constant spending for every new or renovated building. Both are 'obviously' better than the other, depending on what you look at. Therefore the decision really should be made with more data.

It’s not obviously better because you’re solving for one case when a ramp solves for multiple. At no point does solving nerve damage fix the fact a baby in a stroller has a better time on a ramp, unless you’re proposing a new technology that obviates wheels. But that just makes it the new ramp in its utility.

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#85

Post by pharke »

plutonorm wrote: post #28
twayt wrote: post #17

I wonder if this could be used for a truly immersive vr experience. 1. Hook up said implant, convert analog impulse to digital 2. Chemically induce paralysis of the peripheral motor neurons (??) 3. Truly immersive VR experience where participant controls embodied avatar

yeah, I've been thinking about this for a while. You can do a kind of tomographic reconstruction of neural impulses in the spinal column. By the same token you can induce electric fields within the spinal column. You need an incredibly high density of electrodes arranged around the spinal column. Then you need to construct in real time an image of the internal spinal column down to the level of fibre bundles, in real…

Might be a bit sooner than 2100

https://www.roadtovr.com/neuralink-brain-interface-limb-trac...

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#86

Post by pharke »

ineedasername wrote: post #36

Growing up, this sort of thing was speculated about with almost the same level of "sci fi" around it as things like stopping aging, instant cures for new diseases, and video phones. Just another example of how I slowly ended up living in the future without fully realizing it. Now, where's my flying car and Rosie, my robot maid?

Futurists and sci-fi authors always focus on the destination, we're the ones that get to experience the journey.

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#87

Post by paledot »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #69
cjmcqueen wrote: post #37

As a partner of a person with a complete spinal cord injury, I appreciate these articles and the science being done by these researchers, it is truly a big and complex and worthwhile problem to solve. For most of us, I do want to suggest being careful when and how you mention research and articles like this to people in wheelchairs. Just be aware there are lots of different reasons why someone might be in a wheelchai…

To your last point, it's worth pointing out that making your built environment more easily traversible and usable for people with accessibility needs will pretty much always make it more easily traversible and usable for everyone . It's hard to appreciate this until you visit a country where they haven't spent decades making sure their elevators and hallways are wide enough, there are no unnecessary stupid steps, the…

Canada is unexpectedly one of those countries. Accessibility here is a nightmare, especially in big cities. As another partner of a person with limited mobility, I always notice and appreciate the difference that 40 years of ADA has brought to construction in the US.

(I'd take universal health care over improved building codes any day, but both would be nice.)

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#88

Post by paledot »

Archelaos wrote: post #67
cjmcqueen wrote: post #37

As a partner of a person with a complete spinal cord injury, I appreciate these articles and the science being done by these researchers, it is truly a big and complex and worthwhile problem to solve. For most of us, I do want to suggest being careful when and how you mention research and articles like this to people in wheelchairs. Just be aware there are lots of different reasons why someone might be in a wheelchai…

Whenever I come across an article about walking robots for the military, I am asking myself: What about walking-chairs as a replacement for wheelchairs? Could that be a realistic solution to the access problematic? I am an absolute layperson regarding robotics. Can perhaps anybody with some background explain, what to expect here in the next few years?

No. My wife is paraplegic and we did in fact test a rudimentary exoskeleton at one point.

The reason they don't work is because the mobility she misses the most is the ability to transport a cup of coffee from the coffee maker to her desk, or the ability to go for a jog. It's the little things that have the biggest impact, and no one is going to don an exoskeleton to wear around the house.

Furthermore, the drive to overengineer mobility solutions crashes headlong into the world of manual wheelchairs. Manual wheelchairs are like road bikes: the best ones are the smallest, lightest-weight ones (often made from the same parts and materials). They have as few parts as possible, can turn on a dime, and can be lifted one-handed into the passenger seat of a car.

A walking device of some sort might be a better equivalent to an electric wheelchair for someone with quadriplegia, hemiplegia, muscle spasms, or generalized weakness, but here you have the problem that many electric wheelchair users are at high risk of pressure sores. There's a reason that electric wheelchairs have all sorts of fancy recliner features: sit in any chair for 16 hours a day without the ability to shift around and you're going to do some pretty serious damage to whatever your weight is resting on. An exoskeleton necessarily holds you in a more upright position, putting more weight on fewer body parts.

The solution to the access problem is to build ramps and lifts.

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#89

Post by paledot »

londons_explore wrote: post #50
cjmcqueen wrote: post #37

As a partner of a person with a complete spinal cord injury, I appreciate these articles and the science being done by these researchers, it is truly a big and complex and worthwhile problem to solve. For most of us, I do want to suggest being careful when and how you mention research and articles like this to people in wheelchairs. Just be aware there are lots of different reasons why someone might be in a wheelchai…

I guess the real question is, will a dollar spent on wheelchair ramps in buildings across the USA give a greater quality of life improvement to the average american than a dollar spent on medical research that tries to repair spinal nerves? Obviously "average american" is not intended to reflect the 'typical american', but instead be an average across all people, including those with mobility requirements.

And spina bifida, and cerebral palsy, and strokes, and diabetes, and broken bones, and arthritis, and being pregnant, and just getting old, and literally hundreds of other disorders that cause temporary or permanent impairment.

By the time you're finished fixing the reasons people encounter mobility issues, we'll be darn near immortal - and you still won't have magicked away the reasons that able-bodied people benefit from universal design.

Re: Spinal implants allow paralysed people to walk, swim and cycle again

#90

Post by paledot »

mwcampbell wrote: post #77
londons_explore wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. And when discovered, those treatments can be used forever, whereas ramps require constant spending for every new or renovated building. Both are 'obviously' better than the other, depending on what you look at. Therefore the decision really should be made with more data.

> But medical research leads to treatments which may have far better quality of life improvements than ramps. And when discovered, those treatments can be used forever, whereas ramps require constant spending for every new or renovated building. I think you make a good point here. Likewise, making software accessible, e.g. to blind people, requires effort for every GUI toolkit and non-trivial application. In the shor…

Just like universal design in the physical world, universal design in software has knock-on benefits for everyone. A website that can be properly parsed by a screen reader can be scraped by search engines and archived efficiently. An application with proper tab indexes can be easily navigated by someone with a laptop rather than forcing them to reach for the trackpad.

> curing or preventing all of the various causes of blindness

All of them? Got a list?

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