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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#181

Post by jimbokun »

ramesh31 wrote: post #27

Men's comparative advantage, throughout human history, has always been their physical strength. It was the one thing a man could count on to provide value to society. That is no longer the case in our modern economy. You need intelligence, emotional intellect, and analytical skills. All of which men and women are on an equal footing at. So when you remove the ability to generate a viable income through physical labor…

> it's pretty obvious why a good portion of men are now left without anything useful to contribute.

Well that went downhill quickly.

You start out with men and women on equal footing. Then the next sentence men no longer have anything useful to contribute.

Shouldn't the obvious conclusion be that men and women have equally as much to contribute? And therefor you would expect an equal number of men and women succeeding academically?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#182

Post by humanrebar »

Jtsummers wrote: post #72
paulcole wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this an issue? Aren't good role models good role models regardless of gender/sex?

People are emotional creatures, not rational ones. Like it or not, there is an outsized influence on (especially) young people when they do or do not see people "like them" (gender, ethnicity, immigration status, nation of origin, etc.) in various roles. And this is also exaggerated by society. If a boy is in a community where it's "common knowledge" that men are stupid, deadbeat, bums, then no one will be surprised…

Some men are relatively emotionless, and there's nothing particularly bad about it, but it can be difficult to find healthy role models who are wired the same way.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#183

Post by skinkestek »

ok_dad wrote: post #162
Beltalowda wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed; how is it fair that men are "forced" to work and provide income (with all the stress associated for that, especially for low-earners) and are "forced" to miss out on their kids? It seems to me that's just as much of an injustice as women being "forced" to stay at home. ("forced" in quotes as it's not strongly forced, but rather "forced" by expectations, prospects, etc.) I've long considered traditional gender…

Men are socialized to work by the same society that women are socialized to stay home and make babies. Feminism's direct goals would be breaking that down so that men could stay home (unfortunately we cannot make babies) and women could work, or any other combination, without the traditional gender role boundaries. Feminism's goals are good for everyone.

You are talking about a subset of reasonable feminists.

Feminism also contains the culture that wants six year old boys to be held back, feel shame and suffer for the sins of their fathers.

Feminism also contains the idea that being a man is some kind of disease, something to be ashamed of.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#184

Post by lph »

fiftyfifty wrote: post #112
lph wrote: post #46

Andrew Yang makes some good points in this piece, particularly about positive masculinity and role models. Whether fair or not, the perception that the left is hostile to men has driven recruitment for the far right, and that merits some reflection. But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of youn…

I've coached high school sports teams, both boys and girls, for the last two decades. I've seen some of these trends unfold over the years with my student athletes. My observation is girls are just more motivated than boys, even for something fun like sports practices and workouts, girls in general will show up more consistently than boys. The teachers I've spoken to at the school where I coach have confirmed the sam…

I have two elementary-aged children, a boy and a girl. They fit the pattern you describe to a T, and I think most teachers' experience would agree.

So anecdotally, the theory that (in general) boys need more nudging than girls from someone in their life in order to be successful rings true. But what would account for a modern change? Are there fewer people pushing, now? Are boys more resistant to it now, or maybe more distracted? Are expectations of boys different now than they were in the past?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#185

Post by staticman2 »

decafninja wrote: post #158
nicoburns wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does doing the actual childcare not constitute providing for their family? I'd argue that if men see bringing in an income as providing and not other things (and I don't think that's universal at all) then that's entirely cultural.

"Providing for the family" traditionally refers to bringing in an income. Of course technically that's not the only thing, but for argument's sake. I'm curious - are there any human cultures where the woman was the traditionally (as in, not a recent modern phenomenon) the breadwinner and the men stayed at home? I know there are cultures that were matriarchal in leadership, and that there are animal species (i.e. lion…

Women needed to stay with the kids to breastfeed. Baby formula was only invented around 1865. Any traditional culture is going to need women to stay with the babies to keep them from starving.

However women would take babies with them while doing things like picking nuts and berries.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#186

Post by Beltalowda »

ok_dad wrote: post #162
Beltalowda wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed; how is it fair that men are "forced" to work and provide income (with all the stress associated for that, especially for low-earners) and are "forced" to miss out on their kids? It seems to me that's just as much of an injustice as women being "forced" to stay at home. ("forced" in quotes as it's not strongly forced, but rather "forced" by expectations, prospects, etc.) I've long considered traditional gender…

Men are socialized to work by the same society that women are socialized to stay home and make babies. Feminism's direct goals would be breaking that down so that men could stay home (unfortunately we cannot make babies) and women could work, or any other combination, without the traditional gender role boundaries. Feminism's goals are good for everyone.

Sure, I'm not "against" feminism in general or anything, although re-reading my previous comment I can see how it gave off that impression. I just think it's a very limited view on things, which translates into suboptimal solutions. I also think it can feed alienation among men at times, rather than involving them in the conversation.

From what I've read and people I've spoken to, quite a large number – though far from all – feminists seem to agree on that in broad lines, yet somehow the public discourse still remains fairly narrow IMHO. Personally, I blame the "MRA" people and their nonsense.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#187

Post by jimbokun »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #99
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

Girls and women are marginalised in the area of technology. This site in particular has hosted terabytes of discussion of this problem. If you look back at some of the stories about conferences and why codes of conduct have been set up, you will see at least part of the publicly visible part of this. This is why it’s perfectly socially acceptable to set up a specific group to give women and girls a chance to learn sk…

> This is why it’s perfectly socially acceptable to set up a specific group to give women and girls a chance to learn skills in an environment where they feel safe from sneering, lewd comments, and other such behaviour which is not conducive to learning, or simply having a good time.

No. You just make it clear this is an environment where such behaviors are not tolerated.

Also, it's not true that women and girls are incapable of sneering and lewd comments.

You come across very much as the kind of person who believes boys are inherently deficient and deserve to fail, based on your assumptions about how boys will behave, and that they are incapable of behaving differently.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#188

Post by YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #138
thrway99 wrote: post #61

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

Quoted post unavailable.

Have some respect for yourself.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#189

Post by jimbokun »

idealmedtech wrote: post #63
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

I believe it's reactionary attitudes like these (why can't we have a special club?) that make tech so hostile to women in the first place. If they feel better in a space that specifically caters to women, and if by them feeling better, they actually learn the skills, why should they not have those spaces? These are not mutually exclusive things!

Now try proposing a space that caters to men and helps them learn and feel better.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#190

Post by SuoDuanDao »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #174
SuoDuanDao wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analyisis is missing something more fundamental - men's fundamental biological advantage is higher risk-tolerance, physical strength was associated with surviving physical risk to a degree that it justified the higher calorie expanditure powerful muscles require. Even with a lot of mechanisation of heavy lifting, men would still be more willing to do anything dangerous because a kin group can afford to l…

Nobody has ever wanted to overload a cargo ship until it sinks but it seems like in the past ~10-15yr the idea of worthwhile risks even existing have become demonized except in the most abstract settings (math, finance, etc). In 1980 the guy that fixed a radio antenna in a blizzard because "what good is fall protection if I don't use it" got told he did a good job. Today he would be chewed out for taking unnecessary…

Even in finance, risk has become so socialised (thinking in particular of the wall street bailouts) that it's hard for an individual to take on a larger share of the risk for a larger reward even when he honestly wants to do so.
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