The data are clear: The boys are not all right • Hacker News Board

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#171

Post by readthenotes1 » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:37 PM UTC

frankbreetz wrote: post #5

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

The demographic data, which you can pretty easily look up, is pretty clear on that. Women started joining the workforce dramatically in the '70s. What happened in the '90s was the death of manufacturing.

One thing to remember when looking at manufacturing capacity in the United States is that it's somewhat skewed. For instance, when a CPU doubled its speed, the US government decided that we had doubled our manufacturing capacity. I don't know what other interesting if you points have skewed the data.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#172

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:37 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #161

Is there a generational thing that causes people to say "data is" vs. "data are" in this context? Because to me "data are" sounds so egregiously wrong it takes me seconds to focus on anything else.

The singular is datum, technically. Though real pedants will also point out that the plural of octopus is octopodes.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#173

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:38 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #92

lph wrote: post #46

Andrew Yang makes some good points in this piece, particularly about positive masculinity and role models. Whether fair or not, the perception that the left is hostile to men has driven recruitment for the far right, and that merits some reflection. But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of youn…

As with any challenged population, blaming the victim is unfair in the majority of cases, is unproductive in finding solutions, and it creates division where it is unwarranted. But the phrase "positive masculinity" is fraught. Ease in befriending and reaching real camaraderie with women does not depend on masculinity at all. It depends on seeing others as equals. I sure don't think about masculinity and whether I'm d…

> It isn't changing their outcomes.

Peterson's whole schtick is challenging young men to take responsibility for their own outcomes.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#174

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:38 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #131

ramesh31 wrote: post #27

Men's comparative advantage, throughout human history, has always been their physical strength. It was the one thing a man could count on to provide value to society. That is no longer the case in our modern economy. You need intelligence, emotional intellect, and analytical skills. All of which men and women are on an equal footing at. So when you remove the ability to generate a viable income through physical labor…

I think your analyisis is missing something more fundamental - men's fundamental biological advantage is higher risk-tolerance, physical strength was associated with surviving physical risk to a degree that it justified the higher calorie expanditure powerful muscles require. Even with a lot of mechanisation of heavy lifting, men would still be more willing to do anything dangerous because a kin group can afford to l…

Nobody has ever wanted to overload a cargo ship until it sinks but it seems like in the past ~10-15yr the idea of worthwhile risks even existing have become demonized except in the most abstract settings (math, finance, etc).

In 1980 the guy that fixed a radio antenna in a blizzard because "what good is fall protection if I don't use it" got told he did a good job. Today he would be chewed out for taking unnecessary risks.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#175

Post by boringg » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

worik wrote: post #115

ok_dad wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I would love to quit working and take care of my family at home. I find much more joy in that than working a programming career. I think a lot of men have been conditioned to think we have to be the provider much like women have been conditioned to think they have to be a homemaker.

I did. It was great. Until my children grew up and I rejoined the workforce. That has been a struggle.

I figure this is the tough transition once the kids are older and try to get back into the career-mode after a long hiatus. I hope you are finding your footing.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#176

Post by skinkestek » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

ytwombly wrote: post #150

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

> Whatever the cause I fully reject the lazy conclusion this is somehow women's fault.

Of course! The problem is not women!

The problem is media, schools, companies, everyone buying into this in a collective delusion.

Men also think this, but unlike women we are even encouraged to strengthen these insane ideas that we are somehow inferior (gets imprisoned more often, less academic success despite supposedly being extremely privileged.)

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#177

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

bmj wrote: post #113

zozbot234 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do realize that a career in the skilled trades can lead to very good pay, right? Only if you can start your independent business, which few can do pretty much by definition. That's still a recipe for bimodal outcomes. And the U.S. has pushed "college achievement" on paper, but their K-12 education still sucks. There's no way that this isn't a drag on college outcomes.

This isn't necessarily true. I know a wide range of folks that work in union trade positions, and they make very good money. Now, sometimes, those jobs can be unpleasant for awhile (building is behind schedule, etc, etc), but they also last a finite amount of time. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the trades are a gravy train for everyone, but the idea that you will barely make ends meet is also not the case.

> union trade positions

But union jobs are at an all time low.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#178

Post by sharikous » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #152

thrway99 wrote: post #61

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

I don't know. It seems like the middle to upper class is having fewer kids, while the lower middle class and poor are having more kids. This could be a bunch of different factors like most needing dual income to do well but not having time with the kids, assistance programs increasing and targeting kids, etc. The ability of people to connect via dating services is high, including the people you categorized as not pas…

> while the lower middle class and poor are having more kids

Most statistics show indeed lower middle class and poor are having more kids than higher income families, but in time the number is decreasing for them too

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#179

Post by throwaway0a5e » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:42 PM UTC

Santosh83 wrote: post #2

Effect of dwindling & non-existent male role models and more importantly, fathers.

The cynical take is that after dry running it in, ahem, certain sub-groups of the population the powers that be liked the results so much they decided everyone should get it.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#180

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Feb 09, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

lph wrote: post #46

Andrew Yang makes some good points in this piece, particularly about positive masculinity and role models. Whether fair or not, the perception that the left is hostile to men has driven recruitment for the far right, and that merits some reflection. But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of youn…

> But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of young men are not unique to them. Fewer women are entering college, also. Women are dropping out of the workforce, also. More young women are living with their parents, also. Is that because they lacked strong masculine role models?

You're not wrong, but at the risk of drawing an unhelpful analogy, I'll point out that the "all lives matter" response to "black lives matter" missed the point in the same way. Of course the prospects of everyone is important, but describing how young men have distinct and perhaps underappreciated experiences should be a viable conversation that doesn't get bogged down before it really gets going.