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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#131

Men's comparative advantage, throughout human history, has always been their physical strength. It was the one thing a man could count on to provide value to society. That is no longer the case in our modern economy. You need intelligence, emotional intellect, and analytical skills. All of which men and women are on an equal footing at. So when you remove the ability to generate a viable income through physical labor…

I think your analyisis is missing something more fundamental - men's fundamental biological advantage is higher risk-tolerance, physical strength was associated with surviving physical risk to a degree that it justified the higher calorie expanditure powerful muscles require. Even with a lot of mechanisation of heavy lifting, men would still be more willing to do anything dangerous because a kin group can afford to lose a few men. It seems less that modern society has a reduced need for physical strength than that it has a reduced need for individuals to take on personal risk - and in fact, the way that risk is largely spread out through society in the form of the social safety net, one might say it has not just a reduced need but a reduced tolerance for risky behaviour. Tough times for men indeed. The instinct to take risks for admiration from our social sphere runs very deep, and there are only so many intellectual or financial risks worth taking.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#132

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

How "out of the workforce" is defined might be a missing part of the big picture. (The term itself is pretty nebulous!)

"Staying home with the kids" might also include learning some skills, or trying to start a business, or self-employment. The radar will likely miss this. In the US, singles who earn under $12,500 don't need to file a federal tax return.

(Note that the radar will always remember that 'missing time' ... which you may need to account for later! And that info is widely available.)

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#133
post #14

Here's the full Orwell quote. People are wrong when they think that an unemployed man only worries about losing his wages; on the contrary, an illiterate man, with the work habit in his bones, needs work even more than he needs money. An educated man can put up with enforced idleness, which is one of the worst evils of poverty. But a man like Paddy, with no means of filling up time, is as miserable out of work as a d…

"No country, however rich, can afford the waste of its human resources. Demoralization caused by vast unemployment is our greatest extravagance. Morally, it is the greatest menace to our social order."

-FDR

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#134
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More U.S. men ages 18 to 34 are now living with their parents than with romantic partners. and > Research shows that one significant factor women look for in a partner is a steady job. As men’s unemployment rises, their romantic prospects decline. Unsurprisingly, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of data from 1960 to 2010, the proportion of adults without a college degree who marry plummeted from just ove…

As the father of 18 year old who is not going to college and instead working as a carpenter, I don't think lumping 18 year olds with 25+ year olds makes much sense. Perhaps I have an antiquated view of family, but I don't feel his "independence" has everything to do with where he lives. I'm more than happy to have him around the house if it allows him to save money and live a better life at, say, 21.

The statistic uses "now" which implies a change over time, so they have been grouped together for while and it may be difficult to separate this group from past studies.

This does bring up an important concept of "emerging adulthood" [0]. Where in modern day societies there seem to be a time period where young adults do what you are describing. There seem to be some of this coupled with some young men not being able to find purpose in life as evidence by the increase in suicide and drug use in the that group.

[0]https://www.unh.edu/pacs/emerging-adulthood

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#135

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

Do many married men really want that kind of life though? It's one thing to be single and roaming the world carefree. But my observation has been that most men who are married, especially if with children, have some innate desire to provide for the family and not being able to do so (due to unemployment, underemployment, etc.) causes them stress even if the wife is earning more than enough. Those that don't seem to b…

Does doing the actual childcare not constitute providing for their family? I'd argue that if men see bringing in an income as providing and not other things (and I don't think that's universal at all) then that's entirely cultural.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#136
post #92
post #46

Andrew Yang makes some good points in this piece, particularly about positive masculinity and role models. Whether fair or not, the perception that the left is hostile to men has driven recruitment for the far right, and that merits some reflection. But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of youn…

As with any challenged population, blaming the victim is unfair in the majority of cases, is unproductive in finding solutions, and it creates division where it is unwarranted. But the phrase "positive masculinity" is fraught. Ease in befriending and reaching real camaraderie with women does not depend on masculinity at all. It depends on seeing others as equals. I sure don't think about masculinity and whether I'm d…

> I doubt the kind of masculinity advice Jordan Peterson is slinging helps any of the men who listen to him.

The only times I recommend someone read/hear Jordan Peterson is when they radically misrepresent him.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#137

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

IQ has been declining for a while now - https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1718793115

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#138

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

No post body was provided.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#139

White, straight, male, 37 with two kids. One who is severely disabled and under the age of 5. In the past couple of years, its become clear to me that I will probably become a caretaker to my daughter at some point in my life. The prospects of keeping a full time job, in my field are quickly changing - I am no longer desired. Doing this in a financial services setting is especially stark because there's no empathy. I…

White, straight male in my 40s who worked hard to build a decent career. The feeling that this culture hates me based on each of those categories, completely without knowing me, is hard to ignore much longer without a response.

The feeling comes from being on the losing side of every action the government and popular culture takes. Being told that you can’t even be involved in a conversation about that fact.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#140
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the father of 18 year old who is not going to college and instead working as a carpenter, I don't think lumping 18 year olds with 25+ year olds makes much sense. Perhaps I have an antiquated view of family, but I don't feel his "independence" has everything to do with where he lives. I'm more than happy to have him around the house if it allows him to save money and live a better life at, say, 21.

Further, I think it is largely undesirable for people in their late teens or early 20s to be living with romantic partners. Breakups are way more complicated when you also lose your housing.

People don't get good at stuff unless they practice

At some point you need to just do these adult things in order to get good. Delaying doesn't change that much. Better to get the practice over with as soon as possible.

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