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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#121

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

Girls and women are marginalised in the area of technology. This site in particular has hosted terabytes of discussion of this problem. If you look back at some of the stories about conferences and why codes of conduct have been set up, you will see at least part of the publicly visible part of this. This is why it’s perfectly socially acceptable to set up a specific group to give women and girls a chance to learn sk…

I believe what's rubbing many the wrong way is the obvious bias towards 'girls'. The name of the programs, the focus of resources based on being VAR rather than a need someone could be (E.G. how I similarly take mild offense at programs that happen to target 'RACE' rather than 'the POOR' (anyone impoverished, even if that happens to strongly correlate to various races in sadly common cases due to past discrimination)).

So, hypothetically, what do you and others believe needs to change? How would a 'girls can code/tech/etc' look if it couldn't //market// towards girls or any other focus of discrimination? Other than perhaps types of being in the 'have nots' category which any body-type could qualify for?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#122

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

This isn't mysterious. The people sucking money out of the wage pool are the 1% class, not women. 20 trillion in debt for illegal and stupid wars probably didn't help either, though it does tie in once again with the 1% class.

> The people sucking money out of the wage pool are the 1% class, not women

What does that mean?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#123

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

> If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wouldn’t end well. Maybe not, but nearly every Users Group I've attended may as well have been a men's IT society for all the women I've seen attend, despite specific outreach efforts to get them there.

Probably. But why should small boys be punished and denied opportunities because of that?

Also, this has been even broader:

Around here, until recently girls got extra points even on studies were they were massively over-represented (in addition to being generally over-represented in higher education.)

Just recently boys started to get extra points when applying for Engineering degrees in Chemistry or in Nursing.)

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely makes sense. The idea that an 18 year old would start their own household is an artifact from a small period in our history when 18 year olds could easily get an unskilled job that would afford a decent modest lifestyle. But that only really started in the late 40's and was over by the 70's.

You know one thing I find interesting is you specifically call out "unskilled job", which I think has a point but the OP mentions specifically his son studying to be a carpenter that I would consider a "high skilled" job, even if it is blue collar, and then you suggest there was a small period of time when an 18 yo could provide for a family with unskilled labor. I then realized that for much of history up until rece…

Yep. And we do it largely because we started from a schooling model built to shape factory workers, and then tried to develop it by aping what the upper classes did - regardless of whether their models could actually scale or were at all desirable in large numbers.

Sadly, doing so also stripped dignity from vocational / blue-collar work - even when it pays (very) well, kids are told that a life in the trades is for the uneducated, ignorant swines.

Ironically, part of this development is led by emancipation of the lower classes themselves: "I break my back every day but my son will study and be a doctor". A sentiment we all admire, but ends up reinforcing the idea that the father's blue-collar work is crap - and that's not how it should be, all workers should have equal dignity and value.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#125
post #44
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal marriage is decreasing. You can draw on more benefits as single from the System. Legal marriage also leads to pathological complications in terms of seperation in some states.

> Legal marriage also leads to pathological complications in terms of seperation in some states. This cannot be overstated. True even with a prenup.

> This cannot be overstated.

Sure it can. It's not complicated (pathologically or otherwise), it's just not what some people want.

I definitely think (particularly young) people should be better educated about what a marriage contract is and isn't before they get into it.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#126
post #110
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Legal marriage also leads to pathological complications in terms of seperation in some states. This cannot be overstated. True even with a prenup.

In civilised jurisdictions these rules apply to unmarried couples too. The amount of economic violence, historically, perpetrated by men over women has been huge. The worm has turned

What do you mean by "economic violence"? I'm guessing you are not referring to men paying for women's costs of living?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#127
Your reminder that having disenfranchised young men with nothing to lose in your society is like keeping kindling next to a munitions factory and has never ended well.

It’s kind of like a Maslow’s hierarchy of needs but for a society. If your higher needs are only being met at the expense of your lower needs it’s all going to come crashing down.

The lower needs in this case are channeling the energies of those that can commit the most violent atrocities away from committing violent atrocities and into something constructive like jobs and families.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#128

Of course. We treat females like they are a marginalized minority. My son’s school has a “Girls Can Code” program. All collateral features women and girls. (Boys are welcome though) I worked at a place where a C-level executive hosted company endorsed dinners at her home for female managers to mentor them for executive roles. If I setup a boys club for computers at school or hosted a men’s IT society at work, that wo…

The "Girls Who Code" program was created because of the discrimination and bias women face in the tech industry (not to mention other workplaces and areas of life). Also, the existence of woman managers doesn't suddenly mean that sexism doesn't exist in the industry. I'd imagine that many woman managers have faced a lot of prejudice throughout their careers. And there's probably a large amount of women who want to ge…

Your comment does totally make sense. But I also wonder, would a "Men's Teachers Club" for example have the same level of acceptance?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#129
post #92
post #46

Andrew Yang makes some good points in this piece, particularly about positive masculinity and role models. Whether fair or not, the perception that the left is hostile to men has driven recruitment for the far right, and that merits some reflection. But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of youn…

As with any challenged population, blaming the victim is unfair in the majority of cases, is unproductive in finding solutions, and it creates division where it is unwarranted. But the phrase "positive masculinity" is fraught. Ease in befriending and reaching real camaraderie with women does not depend on masculinity at all. It depends on seeing others as equals. I sure don't think about masculinity and whether I'm d…

I don't understand how the phrase "positive masculinity" is fraught, males tend to seek out male role models which is only natural and these role models should be positive influences, further males should not feel that all male traits are "toxic". I don't know that the article called out Jordan Peterson and if that is your only example of "positive masculinity" than we are probably talking past each other.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#130
I like Yang, he's certainly intelligent and his reality/algorithm is certainly separate from mine, yet parallel. So I find what he talks about is very interesting. The first part of the article clearly lays out the reality that men/boys are under attack.

One of the key roles that the political left-wing should represent is fixing disenfranchisement. Unfortunately for about the last few decades, that not only is untrue, the opposite is what is happening. It has been the left-wing who has been disenfranchising boys and men.

>Yes, men have long had societal advantages over women and in some ways continue to be treated favorably. But male achievement — alongside that of women — is a condition for a healthy society.

Here it is coming from Yang. The right-wing are obviously where traditional gender roles are still represented. The equality or rather attack on traditional roles started many decades prior but for example it's the left-wing who has attacked the boy scouts.

It's the same reason that homelessness is in vast majority men, but the vast majority of homeless shelters are women's only.

>Our media, institutions and public leadership have failed to address this crisis, framing boys and men as the problem themselves rather than as people requiring help.

This is intentionally being done by those groups. Hard to address the crisis that they themselves are intentionally creating.

>Resources that keep families together when they want to stay together, such as marriage counseling, should be subsidized by the government — a much more cost-efficient approach than dealing with the downstream effects.

What's more important. This isn't zero-sum, women benefit from men being strong.

>On a cultural level, we must stop defining masculinity as necessarily toxic and start promoting positive masculinity. Strong, healthy, fulfilled men are more likely to treat women well.

This was intentionally done and in fact, it's trending in a worse direction. This is about to get worse before it gets better.

>The above is, of course, a prodigious undertaking. But I see the need around me all the time.

Toxic masculinity isnt a thing on the right-wing. When the left-wing says 'toxic masculinity' the right-wing rolls its eyes. He sees this around him all the time because of where he stands politically. If you're interested in some right-wing positions on this subject.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/01/the_lefts_w...

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/01/why_leftist...

https://mises.org/library/marxism-and-manipulation-man

Oh and if Yang continues this push. We shall never hear from him again.

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