Live data from Hacker News

Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

nature.com

51–60 of 120 posts

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Quoted post unavailable.

> We could quite easily triple our food production if only those limits were lifted.

We don't actually even need to triple the production - depending on the country and crop, anything from 1/3rd to over 60% of production (!!!) is wasted [1].

This insanity has got to stop, and a lot of that waste in Western countries is caused by consumers wanting a 24/7-available selection of all kind of products in their nearest supermarket. And everyone who proposes solutions to that like requiring pre-ordering fresh meat and produce one day in advance (to curb the amount of what has to be thrown away at the end of each day) quickly gets branded a "communist" or comparisons with empty shelves in the former GDR/USSR crop up.

Additionally: It's one thing (and bad enough) if stores keep around a dozen brands of basic yogurt around as that stuff needs a time to expire and stores have got pretty good at keeping that loss minimal, but all that packaged fresh meat... :'(

[1]: https://www.fao.org/platform-food-loss-waste/flw-data/en/

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#52

Why not keep the pee and poop mixed, and use it to harvest biomethane? Effluent can still be used as fertilizer after capturing the gas. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S097308261...

Vice did a good documentary on NYC's effort to do just this

You Don't Know Shit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNiBZiR_uA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVGdmE4_h4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra47l7fihZU

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#53

> That’s in part because urine is rich in nutrients that, instead of polluting water bodies, could go towards fertilizing crops or feed into industrial processes. Huh? We're already producing way too much fertilizer from farm animals, which leads to the situation that countries like the Netherlands [1] and Germany [2] experience a massive oversupply of dung that has to be shipped sometimes hundreds of kilometers beca…

My understanding was not that we have too much manure, but that it's too concentrated. If it were more evenly distributed, it would not cause the same problems with downstream water etc.

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#54
post #30

Drying urine, transporting it, this is extremely energy intensive. There's a much simpler solution: composting toilets. Easy to setup, requires very little input (basically just some dry material like wood shavings (i.e. waste from wood processing that you can sometimes get for free) and you're done. The "humanure" mixed with the dry material goes in a compost bin, sits there for two years, then can be applied to the…

My wife and I rented a Yurt in Fort Collins, CO, near the foot hills of Wyoming. The owner was super eco-conscious/zero-waste. I've not camped for a while, and haven't used anything other than a toilet for years, but something about doing my business in the out house really made the experience 10x better. I think maybe because I feel guilt whenever I flush a toilet that says "3.5-5 gal/flush"... that's a lot of water…

One of the weird things about compost toilet is that septic systems exist. If you're on a well in Colorado, you pump up the water, do your business, filter the water through hundreds of feet of earth and then pump up the water again.

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#55
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> We could quite easily triple our food production if only those limits were lifted. We don't actually even need to triple the production - depending on the country and crop, anything from 1/3rd to over 60% of production (!!!) is wasted [1]. This insanity has got to stop, and a lot of that waste in Western countries is caused by consumers wanting a 24/7-available selection of all kind of products in their nearest sup…

We are producing food to burn it ( Bio ethanol )

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You jest, but I have thought about this. If we all take fiber pills and probiotics will that reduce waste, and also toilet paper consumption? Should we be introducing these things into the water supply like fluoride? (the answer is no, but would be an interesting exercise to see what impact it could have)

Most people in the US -- 66% over eat. Eat less, poop less.

It’s not just a US problem. Obesity is going up everywhere. Even in pets.

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#57

> That’s in part because urine is rich in nutrients that, instead of polluting water bodies, could go towards fertilizing crops or feed into industrial processes. Huh? We're already producing way too much fertilizer from farm animals, which leads to the situation that countries like the Netherlands [1] and Germany [2] experience a massive oversupply of dung that has to be shipped sometimes hundreds of kilometers beca…

It's probably worth pointing out that the component that's overabundant in the Netherlands (nitrogen) is only part of what can be recovered from urine. In particular there's a chronic lack of phosphorus.

It is not overabundant, just abundant. We do have an overabundance of Natura 2000 lots.

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#58
post #30

Drying urine, transporting it, this is extremely energy intensive. There's a much simpler solution: composting toilets. Easy to setup, requires very little input (basically just some dry material like wood shavings (i.e. waste from wood processing that you can sometimes get for free) and you're done. The "humanure" mixed with the dry material goes in a compost bin, sits there for two years, then can be applied to the…

They waterless separating toilets discussed by the article literally are composting toilets. The difference is they're proposing using the diverted urine to replace more energy-intensive commercial fertiliser production, rather than treating it as the less useful waste byproduct for people's gardens.

(That and they're acknowledging that people who haven't chosen composting toilets tend not to like them, because the separating takes some getting used to and if you don't separate urine from faeces the decomposition is much slower and smellier)

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#59
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Quoted post unavailable.

Sigh.

Why does every discussion about overpopulation immediately devolve to food supply? I get that seems like the obvious thing to talk about, but the real world of supply chains and materials is far more complex than "food". It guaranteed that we can industrially produce far above our current population levels and we'll totally screw up the planet. How do I know?

Because of global warming and mass extinctions.

What overpopulation discussions miss and devolve to also is that it isn't important on the number of people, it is the RESOURCE RATE PER PERSON combined with POPULATION that produces the "are we sustainable".

What doesn't scare me is China and India's population. It's China and India's rapid climb to US-level lifestyles and per capita resource consumption rates.

Here's the most important thing we are not conserving/shows we are overextended:

1) natural habitat destruction

2) everything else (water, metals, food, clean air)

I'm not just talking about the Amazon. The amount of space needed for HUMANS isn't important. The amount of space needed by NATURE very very very much is.

We drain all the swamps. We clear all the forest. We farm all the plains. We trawl the oceans.

This is the most stinging indictment of modern economics: what is the economic cost of destroying a natural habitat? It's not zero, in fact every single economic study will likely point out "well we could exploit this forest for human purposes and gain tax and GDP out of it".

That single failure, a TOTAL inability to quantify the economic value of a natural habitat in terms of sustaining the ecosystems, food webs, species proliferation/redundancy, production of oxygen/removal of CO2 isn't just going to kill us as a species, that's just garden variety extinction. It might kill the entire ecosystem and everything but single celled organisms.

Our developmental economics should STRONGLY prefer cities. A high rise apartment building should be far cheaper, so a 3000 sq ft apartment should be 1/3 the cost of a suburban 3000 sq ft house.

Re: Separating urine from sewage could mitigate some environmental problems

#60
Seems like these systems assume only human urine will go into these storage systems. But in reality, people tend to flush more than just fecal matter, urine, and water down the drain.

In order to clean the toilet bowl, people will use highly poisonous cleaning solutions. How will these cleaning solutions mixed with the stored urine affect its usage as a fertilizer? Even if it is eventually dehydrated, wouldn’t some of the cleaning solution still be present?

What happens if you send other types of fluid down the “urine only” toilet or system (ie, blood, vomit)?

People will even flush drugs, dead pet fish, alcohol and other non-human waste products down the drain.

In theory, it sounds like a great way to reduce our carbon footprint. But if they are designing the system on the assumption that people are smart and will only use it as intended then it might actually cause the opposite effect.

Post reply on HN