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A Lonely Universe

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131–140 of 210 posts

Re: A Lonely Universe

#131
post #130

Maybe it's just aswell planets with life are unimaginably far apart. What if some virulent pathogen got loose and got onto other (close) planets? Earth is going through a global pandemic now. If we make close contact with advanced intelligences we could pass on diseases to them that would contaminate their species. In a sense the long distance of relative planets acts as a quarantine!

Generally cross species transmission is an extremely rare thing here on earth as I understand it, is it not? No reason to believe it would be more transmissible when you talk about jumping totally divergent evolutionary chains.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think that a society that can control antimatter has solved the problem of scarcity. Which would hopefully end most human discontentment and hostility.

America has solved the hunger problem. It hasn't ended human discontentment and hostility at all.

I'm ignorant in the matter of food scarcity in USA, but I would say that hunger is far from solved.

USA may produce more food than it can consume, but there is still the cost of production and delivery of food. Hunger will still be a thing if food costs more than people can pay. USA may collectively have enough money to buy food for everyone, but the will to spend public money is not there at the current cost of food.

The following is scifi hopefulness ...

When I say an end to scarcity, I mean all scarcity. Primarily that of energy. If we had unlimited free energy we could solve most other problems of scarcity. With free energy we could desalenate ocean water, we could have vertical indoor farms with artificial sunlight.

Robots could do all the manual labor. I'm assuming a society with free energy has also developed general purpose robots that can learn to do any task assigned to them.

There is still the problem of limited natural resources. Unless we develop the technology to create the raw materials by reassembling the molecules of trash.

Also, I wonder what will happen to people and economic activity if robots take all the manual labor jobs.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#133

See also The Dark Forest: > The universe is a dark forest. Every civilization is an armed hunter stalking through the trees like a ghost, gently pushing aside branches that block the path and trying to tread without sound. Even breathing is done with care. The hunter has to be careful, because everywhere in the forest are stealthy hunters like him. If he finds other life—another hunter, an angel or a demon, a delicat…

I always liked this description because it is so similar to the descriptions of untouched cultures in West New Guinea when they were first discovered in the middle of last century. These cultures were entirely untouched and it gave anthropologists a look into what life was like before before civilization. The island was divided into tiny tribes which lead an incredibly brutal way of life. One of the interesting featu…

I dunno, the dark forest trilogy definitely sparks interesting conversations.

But a counter example to it is that only via cooperation a tribe can become technologically advanced.

All those tribes are just tribes due to their constant squabbling and fighting, while the other that cooperated, traded and exchanged ideas ended up advancing. Wars were/are part of humans but in Europe it quickly became evident that technology and ideas > traditional warfare. Each tech eventually falling out of favour when better strategy/tech emerged.

I believe that the solution to the Feremi paradox is biology/game theory, the only way for intelligence to emerge is via evolutionary competition where intelligence is justified cost for the enormous energy requirement. And that mechanism is the local maxima where competition is wired in and drags down sufficiently large groups down.

Any successful organism/organisation will fall prey to an exploiting organism/individual due to its size, be it internal or external. Empires. countries dominant species all fall prey to exploits over time.

Getting out into space is really hard and we hardly scratched the 'surface' of space exploration. And even if we somehow managed to colonize mars and/or Europa, i think Expanse have an accurate picture of what would happen, new species of humans will develop (slowly) and will culturally diverge putting whole 'one humanity' going into space into wishful thinking category back again.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#134

Either intelligent life is rare in the universe or there's something that happens to it that prevents it from what we envision as the future of our own species, i.e., colonizing and spreading among planets. Maybe 99.99% of species ruin their own climate before getting off-world. Maybe they all decide it's happier living as hunter-gatherers. Unless we're alone, there is some fate that's common to all intelligences and…

I think you need multiple generations (subsequent) of stars in order to get heavier elements - which are probably needed by life. So maybe the universe is not _that_ old.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-generations-of-stars-have-the...

Re: A Lonely Universe

#135
post #130

Maybe it's just aswell planets with life are unimaginably far apart. What if some virulent pathogen got loose and got onto other (close) planets? Earth is going through a global pandemic now. If we make close contact with advanced intelligences we could pass on diseases to them that would contaminate their species. In a sense the long distance of relative planets acts as a quarantine!

If you are into sci-fi with a tinge of horror you might like the Night's Dawn trilogy by Peter F Hamilton [0].

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night%27s_Dawn_Trilogy

Re: A Lonely Universe

#136
post #113
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is simply too far apart. That's very likely. There are only two known systems with possibly habitable planets within 40 light years.

What are those two systems?

Not OP but I imagine they mean TRAPPIST-1 and perhaps Proxima Centauri.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#137
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another possibility is that energy is really hard to come by. Humans absolutely struggle to amass much energy. Think of the insane amount of energy required to lift things into space, and how many millions more amounts of energy we’ll need just to build something in space. Heck if you go drive off grid on Earth, you can barely bring any energy with you and you won’t really be able to generate an appreciative amount o…

That's why it makes no sense to build something big by lifting heavy things from the Earth. Just mine asteroids, extract iron, melt it into chunks, then transport those chunks very slowly but with huge throughput from asteroids to the necessary building site in space and use them to build space ship. You can melt iron just by focusing enough sun light and you can build ships closer to sun for cheaper sun light. It's…

Thinking through those interrelations for manufacturing processes was my hope for this: https://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/ https://www.oscomak.net/ https://openvirgle.net/

And earlier, this: https://pdfernhout.net/princeton-graduate-school-plans.html https://pdfernhout.net/sunrise-sustainable-technology-ventur...

Still think it is all a good idea. Glad the "maker" movement is making some progress in that area. As I noted on the LibrePlanet mailing list a few weeks ago: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreplanet-discuss/2022-...

Someday after I "retire" I hope to have more time to work on all that.

Tangentially, on a super earth with more gravity, they would have an easier time going into orbit energetically using mass drivers or laser launch systems instead of rockets. And in any case, how big a seed do you really need to make a space infrastructure if you are patient? And the ground can communicate to space with radio or lasers (like for telepresence) which are not affected much by planetary gravity even for super earths.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#138

Either intelligent life is rare in the universe or there's something that happens to it that prevents it from what we envision as the future of our own species, i.e., colonizing and spreading among planets. Maybe 99.99% of species ruin their own climate before getting off-world. Maybe they all decide it's happier living as hunter-gatherers. Unless we're alone, there is some fate that's common to all intelligences and…

The third option is that everything is simply too far apart and any detectible transmissions are either too faint or buried behind all those massive fusion furnaces. For instance, if our best Earth tech was pointed at Earth from a distant star, how far away would we be able to detect our own traces of life? We know that life is "a little rare" at least, but there is a huge range of rarity where life is everywhere acr…

This is what I find most plausible as well. If we just look at facts we currently believe to be true, then we know there are enormous distances between planets and no fast way of travelling between them. Then for a lot of probabilities you want to assign to the likelihood of intelligent life emerging on a Goldilocks planet, the universe would look exactly like it does today. I.e. we’re all on isolated islands on a fast ocean, and it doesn’t matter how advanced our tech gets: we’re still all limited by the laws of physics so we all think we’re alone.

Re: A Lonely Universe

#139

Either intelligent life is rare in the universe or there's something that happens to it that prevents it from what we envision as the future of our own species, i.e., colonizing and spreading among planets. Maybe 99.99% of species ruin their own climate before getting off-world. Maybe they all decide it's happier living as hunter-gatherers. Unless we're alone, there is some fate that's common to all intelligences and…

There's soo much we don't know at this point.

1. I'd presume life is exceedingly rare to start with, but I guess in the future we'll get a lot more tech to verify that -- direct imaging for biomarkers?

2. I'm sure there must be a "long term survival" equation for a given intelligent species that involves parameters such as "individual intelligence", individual lifespan, individual aggression level, individual empathy level, lifetime mating strategies that would predict if a species can go interstellar or not.

There's just so much to unpack about humans -- we did not evolve to live like we do today and because this transition is so abrupt, it could lead to a collapse of modern civilization, in my humble opinion.

We did not evolve to live in mega communities where antisocial behavior is rewarded (all kind of leaders), it is very likely that such an antisocial leader ends the human race in the future. It could be that a much more intelligent species where individuals have much greater "actuator power" that was able to reach our technological level with much fewer individuals would be able to eliminate such leaders and not have this problem.

It could be that a species with a much higher lifespans but a bit less intelligence than humans would have a lot more individual and collective wisdom and be better equipped to deal with tyrants or climate change. To me it seems that we are not capable of long-term survival goals. I find it sad that as a species we haven't invested in a planetary asteroid defense, or transition to nuclear-solar-electric energy. It's just so sad we developed nuclear technologies only for this technology to enable perpetual tyrants. Or electronics only to enable the same tyrants in perpetuity. Looking back just a few thousand years we can see events that cam wipe out 90% or more of the population of the Earth (such as the eruption of a supervolcano that would destroy all crops).

A species that can think of transcending historical-biological limitations should immediately strive to do so.

It could be that a species with much higher intelligence and much higher empathy would not destroy its planet and would not let greed destroy the very fabric of their society and actually make it over the "hump".

I don't see humans as having it to make it over "the hump", our "human condition" will prevent us from making it.

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