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Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

#51
post #5

Here is the paper detailing the preparations, which were about mimicking an ITER-like wall: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1741-4326/ab2276/...

So I read that this is good news for ITER. Sorry for the noob question but there is something I do not understand. I thought ITER design was more or less decided now as they are building it. Should I understand that they started building ITER without really knowing where they were going to go and are using JET experiment as a way know how to build ITER?

ITER was planned in part through early results from JET in the 90s - but they more recently replaced the inner wall of JET to match what ITER will use, which was a good choice according to models but this gives empirical confirmation that it's possible to sustain the plasma using the new wall material.

All new fusion plants are a risk, that's why they're experimental. I suspect they were reasonably confident they could make ITER work and that's why they started building, but this will give them confirmation that the material choice was a good one and will also show them in advance some of the operational obstacles and possible solutions.

In other words, they knew "where they were going to go" but this gives them more confidence they were correct in deciding the direction, and will speed up their learning curve setting up the machine once built. Even if it is built and something fundamentally doesn't work about the concept, that will still be useful scientific knowledge, even if it is disappointing.

Re: Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

#53
post #37

What is stopping one of the major western governments from printing $50B of their own currency and investing it all in an intensive fusion programme? There doesn’t seem to be much to lose (these economies are already unreasonably inflated) but so much to gain from viable fusion.

ITER is doing that, no? Large scale test of fusion energy output.

Problem with ITER is it's not 1 country, it's lots, and they all want their piece of the pie instead of doing it efficiently

Re: Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realise that countries can work together without being part of the same trading block? ... If I understand your nonsensical ramblings correctly.

> ... If I understand your nonsensical ramblings correctly. If you think they are nonsensical, you do not understand what I am saying. Yes, countries can "work together without being part of the same trading bloc" but trade is not the limit of what Brexit changed. Brexit removes us from the international legal agreements that underpinned that trade. It also removed us from the free movement clause, which is crucial t…

> If you think they are nonsensical, you do not understand what I am saying.

And I thankyou for clarification :)

> but trade is not the limit of what Brexit changed.

Here in lies the problem that many Brexitiers had with the EU - it wasn't just a trading bloc, the "club" had a lot of baggage that few people understood - and when people don't understand something, they fear/misstrust it. The message around leaving was focused on GDP and whether we would have roaming chargers or not... and this message fell flat with a lot of voters.

I blame the remain side with arrogance and a complete lack of understanding how to deliver a good message.

I voted remain BTW, but feel we had a fair vote and it is what it is.

Re: Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

#56

They're still a very long way from getting a net gain in energy: https://youtu.be/LJ4W1g-6JiY

I'm not quite sure why but I have this flashback-like feeling from blockchain with this Q_total < Q_plasma confusion.

Pardon the analogy, but bringing up Q_engineering in this context is like someone shopping for a car running into Ford's engine design department and complaining that the engineers are not using the car's fuel economy to increase the engine's performance.

How much power the subsystems takes has no influence on the plasma's performance. How much power goes into the plasma (and what type of power and where and when, etc.) do influence the plasma's performance.

Re: Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

#57
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can read that as a pro-Brexit comment, then the Brexit project succeeded beyond its instigators' wildest dreams. It's not ambiguous at all. Everything in the UK going on right now -- everything -- has a "some of this is unclear or worse because Brexit has destroyed agreements or because proposed, nearly impossible agreements have not been struck" subplot. Brexit has set fire to every kind of international comp…

Thank you for clarifying. The confusion is because your comment could easily be interpreted as a criticism of lazy reporting (everything negative that occurs must be because of brexit) rather than actual criticism due to a real issue beyond how it is reported.

Ah!!

I actually rewrote it to the form it is now, about 15 seconds after posting it, to try to remove any suggestion it's about the report; it's possible I suppose that some people reacted to it before I did.

I went from "paragraph" (as in, in an article) to "parenthetical" in the colloquial sense. Like, literally every process or discussion about anything going on in the country has to have this sidebar about how much worse it is because of all the changes.

I don't really read it as confusing because I had the "thanks, disaster capitalists" bit, which should be unambiguous, but I haven't had my coffee, so I will note and upvote your point and think about it next time I write stuff :-)

Re: Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

#58
post #6

> The experiments produced 59 megajoules of energy over five seconds (11 megawatts of power). > This is more than double what was achieved in similar tests back in 1997. > It's not a massive energy output - only enough to boil about 60 kettles' worth of water. But the significance is that it validates design choices that have been made for an even bigger fusion reactor now being constructed in France. I thought this…

Of course this is great news, however, it is worth taking into account it took them 25 years just to double the energy output. They are also nowhere near long sustained operation of such reactors. It really requires an order of magnitude increase before nuclear fusion becomes a realistic prospect in two decades. I understand this just to validate design choices and it is a good step forward. However, it doesn't make…

JET ran its moonshot campaign 25 years ago. Moonshot as in "we don't care if the machine runs again", for whatever reason. It hasn't been funded for nuclear operations since then. It's not that it took 25 years to make progress. It took 25 years to find funding.

Re: Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

#59
In extension to this news and the press conference, one thing I am super excited about, is the private SPARC project and the MIT-spinoff Commonwealth Fusion Systems (CFS). If you don't know about it already, I would highly recommend checking it out (e.g. by searching YouTube for "MIT Sparc Fusion Reactor" for some fairly accessible videos on the theory behind why they should achieve fusion way faster than the current roadmap with ITER and DEMO).

In the press conference just ended, they repeated how exactly the JET reactor worked as predicted by theory. In my layman's understanding, for the exact same reason (seemingly very sound theoretical groundwork), the SPARC reactor should exceed breakeven within the next few years.

From Wiki on CFS:

* Back in September 2021, they built the strongest high-room-temperature superconducting magnet (20 Tesla) suitable for a fusion reactor

* Theory dictates that with stronger magnets, the reactor can be scaled down (with the square/cube, can't remember exactly), and thus cost and time to develop

* Back in November 2021, they raised $1.8 billion from the likes of Bill Gates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Fusion_Systems

Boy, do I think it would be crazy cool if they succeed, even taking twice as long as they've planned! :)

Re: Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy

#60
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess you could argue that you wouldn't evaporate all water in the kettle... One does not have to argue for that interpretation - raising the temperature to boiling point, not boiling it dry, is indisputably the accepted and intended meaning of the phrase wherever English is spoken... though it would fit with a certain stereotype of scientists if a bunch of plasma physicists did not know how to make a pot of tea!

indisputably the accepted and intended meaning of the phrase wherever English is spoken Not exactly. In American English "bring a pot to a boil" is much more common. When I read "enough energy to boil 60 kettles of water" I thought "vaporize".

Point taken - I can't dispute the fact that you read it this way!
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