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Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

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Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#201
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, those are called "lies".

It’s amazing to see comments like this on a technology focused website - an industry that has moved leaps and bounds due to competition and free markets. I assume these commenters are either too young to have much life experience or young and idealistic without seeing how the world really works.

Our industry developed due to the labour put in by so many and central planning and funding by several governments, not due to free markets.

It's a literal idealist position to insist that free markets cause development, when the vast majority of material evidence across the world points to the contrary.

Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#203

If the prices of energy go sky-high every time there’s a supply crunch, that’s a good thing for the investor, is it not? Am I missing something here? What is supposed to be the incentive to avoid that situation exactly? You double your investment, and profit falls. Or, you invest nothing, and rake in the cash. Great plan. I just don’t understand why they expected anything else to happen. Markets are not magical unico…

If there is sufficient competition, anyone holding out for extreme prices will make less money than anyone that kicks in at moderate prices, and will usually make no money at all. Same for refusing to invest in more plants when they would easily be profitable.

Compare the gasoline market in the US. It's sufficiently competitive, so there is no way for gas stations to start refusing offers under $50 a gallon and wait for people to get desperate.

But that doesn't mean there will be enough plants, even if there is sufficient competition, it would just push out manipulators.

Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#204
post #189
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe some of us are aware of huge amounts of public grants that went into building up the foundations of that industry till it could operate without induced demand. And many of us also are aware of different constraints impacting monopoly creation and how capital intensive areas behave differently.

Sure, the military bootstrapped the semi-conductor industry, but we’re a long fucking way from the 8088 processor - thanks to capitalism. I mean for $1,000 I can have effectively a 1990’s supercomputer in my pocket. The government didn’t do that, greedy capitalists did.

One of the most important things for a modern cell phone is the GPS receiver. Most couldn't function without it. GPS was and continues to be a system funded by the US government. In fact, the opening of GPS civilian use in 1999 directly corresponds with the global rollout of cell phones in general.

Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#205
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deregulation isn't about improving consumer outcomes, it's about improving profits. Expecting it to result in lower cost per kWh is a losing game.

What seems most remarkable to me is that we've got a fair amount of anti-free-market vitriol in the replies around here but nobody feels a need to provide any argument or evidence. The only person waving evidence around in this thread demonstrates that Texas has substantially lower electricity prices than the US average. And the article argues that there are edge cases where the market design could be improved. But I…

Depends on your definition of "free market". If you mean libre non-profit exchange between consenting peers, i'm all for free market. If you mean a profit-based economy where the people who "own" everything dictate life conditions for the rest of us, i'm pretty much against it.

> Is it to much to ask that the opinions are supported by evidence?

Economy is not a field i'm familiar with so i can't unfortunately provide evidence, but it always appeared to me that with some notable exceptions, regulations protecting consumers from corporations had great effects: lower prices, better quality, better customer service...

Half the articles i read about the USA seem to be about medication prices rising twofold every few years despite being well-studied/produced for decades (like insulin), or ISPs injecting their own advertisement or blocking services from competitors or making lawsuits against municipal ISPs, or people raising debt just for having a lawyer or receiving an education, etc.

There's a lot i hate about France (where i reside), but i'm certainly glad we have "medicare for all" through a national insurance (sécurité sociale), net-neutrality regulations, and free legal defense and education. Although as some would point out, the french governments of the past 30 years or so have been hard at work to dismantle all that.

Competition does not advance humanity. Cooperation is what brought humanity so far (see also: Kropotkin, Graeber, etc). Competition does not reduce costs, except occasionally when a mogul wants to capture the market (like free.fr did when they offered 30€/mo unmetered xDSL back in the early 2000's, which they don't do anymore now that they've become big enough to assert their position).

Don't get me wrong, i'm not advertising for State monopoly. On the contrary, i laud autonomous projects and infrastructure and i'm very critical that in France it's illegal to even build your own house for private usage (unless you follow very strict regulations) or to produce your own electricity (unless you sell it back to EDF). I just don't think that what most people refer to as a deregulated "free market" (based on money and private property) has better outcomes except for the 1% who own everything.

Famous anecdote in french FLOSS circles: when the telecoms regulator (ARCEP) began the process to "open competition" for the ISP market, there were hundreds of ISPs across France and the dozens of representatives couldn't fit in a room at ARCEP offices. A few years later than that, there were only 5-10 represented operators left. Now you can count them on one hand, and the ARCEP people seem happy/relieved about that, as if they'd done their job implementing "competition" by reducing the number of competitors.

Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#206
post #189
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe some of us are aware of huge amounts of public grants that went into building up the foundations of that industry till it could operate without induced demand. And many of us also are aware of different constraints impacting monopoly creation and how capital intensive areas behave differently.

Sure, the military bootstrapped the semi-conductor industry, but we’re a long fucking way from the 8088 processor - thanks to capitalism. I mean for $1,000 I can have effectively a 1990’s supercomputer in my pocket. The government didn’t do that, greedy capitalists did.

If you think government push ended with 8088, I fear you don't have any idea of history. Even in early 1990s, some companies pushing the edge only had customers because DARPA bankrolled it pretty much directly, a lot of success for many foundational tech in modern devices happened thanks to not just government grants for research, but grants for things like MOSIS.

Took some serious decades and big money to switch from government having outsized impact on demand.

Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SO here's the thing: " 3 - Market mechanisms are needed to incentivize surplus capacity, or else we wind up with blackouts." Market mechanisms DO incentivize surplus capacity. There are peaker plants stationed all over the US that operate under 24 hours a year. The rest of the time they're either paid to be on standby through a capacity auction, or they're just not paid. SOme of these plants also exist in Texas. And…

That was a one in a century or so storm. It was predictable.

Why do once-in-a-century weather events seem to happen so much more than once in a century?

Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#208

One reason the market there isn't providing resilience is that the end customers aren't buying resilience. They largely don't have contracts that explicitly incentivize the suppliers to provide it.

Oh, that's interesting.

So in principle, I could have a contract with a supplier that says they have to pay me serious compensation if they cut me off - like, maybe the kind of money I'd have to deploy to quickly deploy and fuel a diesel generator. Under the Texas 2021 conditions, that might mean I've have to get the thing helicoptered in.

Presumably such contracts would focus the minds of the risk-takers.

Upthread, I read that the "market" in Texas consists of suppliers offering all kinds of different tarrifs, like free-after-midnight and so on. This makes it almost impossible for a consumer to compare different offerings. Some suppliers are offering apples, others oranges. We have this in the UK; successive governments have struggled to get consumers to switch suppliers. There is inertia. The variety of tarrif types means that the product doesn't behave like a commodity, because consumer energy contracts are not fungible.

Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#209
post #199
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More solar and wind would have been better in this - getting away from nat gas needs to be prioritized

I don't think that'd help. There were a bunch of articles about how renewable power wasn't to blame and Texas politicians were lying by blaming it, but if you check the actual details the whole justification for that was that everyone knew solar and wind were fundamentally unable to keep the Texas grid supplied with electricty during winter due to low output and so the grid wasn't expecting to rely on them. That is,…

Texas has huge and growing wind and solar resources. The entire west half of the state is windy desert. At one point you couldn't drive across I-40 without passing a 100-meter turbine blade convoy every few minutes. It's true that they can't supply the needs of the entire state yet, but wind power is hugely effective in the winter—provided you budget for cold-weather reliability.

It's very possible that in a competently run system, where both renewables and fossil fuels were properly hardened, wind would have meant the difference between blackouts and getting by.

Re: Texas power crisis revealed flaw in market’s design

#210
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, those are called "lies".

It’s amazing to see comments like this on a technology focused website - an industry that has moved leaps and bounds due to competition and free markets. I assume these commenters are either too young to have much life experience or young and idealistic without seeing how the world really works.

How much life experience do young people need to understand that they're being screwed over and that the society in which they live is becoming ever more tilted towards the benefit of the rich?

Your constant amazement indicates that either you don't understand something, or the rest of the world are idiots can't see what's so self-apparent to you.

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