Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#311

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

hunter2_ wrote: post #164

arnarbi wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it doesn’t actually work that way and it’s in no way an “option”. In reality tipping becomes expected and people withhold it when the service does /not/ meet expectation. That’s awkward and too confrontational for a lot of people so they’ll just tip anyways. Personally I also find it exhausting to have to judge every single service I get. So I just tip a standard amount, there’s absolutely no feedback involve…

For situations where laws allow for sub-standard wages, such as restaurant wait staff, I agree with you. It's not really an option, it's exhausting, there's no point. For situations that aren't codified into law like that, it can more legitimately be modulated according to how the service made you feel, from zero to "keep the change" to a couple bucks to sky's the limit. The former should be solved by abolishing tipp…

> laws allow for sub-standard wages, such as restaurant wait staff

The law does not allow for sub-standard wages, however. If everyone stopped tipping today, wait staff would get the same minimum wage as any other job.

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#312

Post by emteycz » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #171

bayindirh wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Turkey you can move around almost cashless now. Taxis started to accept cards in droves due to the pandemic and some municipalities are integrating VISA/Master infra to the mass transport, so you can just travel with your card. Besides that, literally everywhere allows contactless payments. Even Visa/Master is changing their card designs to move vital information to the back of the card to prevent information thef…

Same in the US. I virtually never use cash. The only real problem I run into is the occasional "open bar"--drinks are free but there's still an etiquette that you should leave a tip which generally means cash.

The EU terminals have support for tips separated from the primary amount.

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#313

Post by cromka » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

laumars wrote: post #222

stu2b50 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a lot of people, going by the sales numbers, have iPhones? It’s more for very small businesses, who just need a quick and easy way to take card payments. Larger outfits will naturally invest in “real” PoS devices.

I can’t speak for America but in the U.K. there have been terminals that do this that small independent businesses have used for years. They connect to your phone too and work with both Android and iOS. You see taxis, street food sellers and all sorts using them. They also cheap and yet still look a hell of a lot more professional than this thing does. https://merchantmachine.co.uk/contactless/ Note that some of thes…

They're fairly common in the U.S., as far as 2015 that I remember, except they're often flaky, rely on Bluetooth and have their own battery, which many means merchants who don't use them that often would switch them off to save the battery. And with your iPhone, it's likely you have it charged and turned on at all times.

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#314

Post by jdgoesmarching » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

dharmab wrote: post #241

throwaway22032 wrote: post #224

Hacker News is such a bizarre place. On the one hand, we have threads about how browsers are fingerprintable and some app is using telemetry and endless discussions on theoretical zero-knowledge protocols and the importance of cryptography and Snowden saying this and that that get voted up to the top. On the other hand, something like this comes up which is basically another step along the "no-one accepts cash" funne…

It's as if there are many different people who use the internet. I personally like using a credit card because it creates a data trail I can use to review my spending and budgets.

I must have missed when we all voted on only using cash. It’s like security bro veganism.

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#315

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

stavros wrote: post #298

MikeKusold wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying with your phone is actually more secure than the old mag-swipe method. Your phone will tokenize your credit card information, which makes it significantly harder to track credit card usage across various merchants. Of course it isn't as private as cash, but it is a step forward from mag-swipe. Square has a good explainer if you want to read more: https://squareup.com/us/en/townsquare/what-does-tokenization...

Harder for whom? The attack vector here isn't "hackers compromised everyone and can correlate your data", it's "Visa knows everything about you". I agree with the GP, this is a huge privacy blind spot.

[deleted]

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#316

Post by can16358p » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:44 PM UTC

bayindirh wrote: post #154

throwaway894345 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied abroad in France in 2012--at this time, all European card readers had been chip-based for quite a while and my US credit card didn't have one. I couldn't figure out how to use them and many store clerks had no idea what to do with my magnetic-strip credit card. I went to England in 2019, at which point cards in the US had been updated to use magnetic stripes, and everyone was using tap-to-pay. It turns out…

In Turkey you can move around almost cashless now. Taxis started to accept cards in droves due to the pandemic and some municipalities are integrating VISA/Master infra to the mass transport, so you can just travel with your card. Besides that, literally everywhere allows contactless payments. Even Visa/Master is changing their card designs to move vital information to the back of the card to prevent information thef…

If only our banks also supported Apple Pay...

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#317

Post by ska » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #165

eldaisfish wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

worth mentioning that this seems a problem limited to the US. Even in Canada, the smallest of towns will have contactless payment. Many Canadians don't really use cash because interac/credit cards have all supported tap to pay for over a decade now.

To be clear, the US has contactless payments all over and probably has had them since ~2015, it just took some time for people to "discover" them.

And yet, I've had contactless rejected (even, we want a signature) as recently as 2018, at least. In major metro in California - let alone gas-station-in-rural-Georgia type places.

The tech was mostly there a while ago, but hardly universally supported. This is one tech area where the US has definitely been notably behind the curve.

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#318

Post by judge2020 » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

pimterry wrote: post #119

djrogers wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’d be trivial for a rogue payment app to display one $ amount on the screen yet deduct another.

This risk also applies to any card terminal where you pay contactlessly. In Europe, that effectively means every card terminal everywhere and a comfortable majority of card transactions ( https://www.mastercard.com/news/europe/en-uk/newsroom/press-... says 75% of mastercard transactions in Europe are contactless). The main protections against this are maximum limits for unverified contactless purchases (about €50, de…

There are still attacks, eg. contactless purchase limits can be bypassed by simply telling the terminal "of course I am a CDCVM device, let me use the higher transaction limits":

(page 18, with pages 10 and 12 showing the Visa/MC limits) https://i.blackhat.com/asia-20/Thursday/asia-20-Galloway-Fir...

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#319

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

sgerenser wrote: post #228

benbristow wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lollipop and aftershave man in my local nightclub's toilet has one. I'm tempted to give him a pound next time to see what pops up on my bank statement (and for some probably counterfeit cologne). For context: I don't know if they're a thing in the States but in most male toilets in nightclubs (and more 'clubby' bars) in the UK there's usually an annoying guy in the toilet who turns off the hand driers and gives y…

Yeah “restroom attendants” are definitely a thing in the US as well. I used to think it was stupid but from the club owner’s point of view it probably helps a lot to avoid vandalism, drug use, etc. that might otherwise occur in the bathrooms. I do end up seeing a lot of people just not wash their hands because they don’t like feeling obligated to tip the guy for handing them a paper towel.

I just take a paper towel myself. If there is a guy standing there holding the only paper towels in the bathroom, I'll just ask him why he's holding them. I wouldn't use one from him either, that just seems gross. I wouldn't tip for it in any case. It's just slightly glorified panhandling, I assume it isn't at all condoned by the club owner and they'd probably throw the guy out if they were aware. I haven't actually seen it in the US, though, just at international airports outside the country, so maybe the dynamic is different here.

Re: Apple unveils contactless payments via Tap to Pay on iPhone

#320

Post by Pxtl » Tue, Feb 08, 2022, 5:48 PM UTC

jermaustin1 wrote: post #263

profmonocle wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I was thinking about the other day is how some modern credit cards technically have four different ways to pay. Swiping pressure-sensitive paper over the raised numbers (the original method) is still possible, though I haven't seen a merchant actually do this since maybe the mid-2000's. Then you have magstripe, chip, and RFID all in the same card. Pretty impressive backwards compatibility, although I think…

Only one of my cards actually has raised numbers and its about to expire, so will probably get a completely flat one that replaces it as well. 2 of my cards are tap only, the mag stripe is gone - they are also store-specific cards, so that might have something to do with it. Master card said they will start phasing out mag strip in 2024. Soon enough tap/dip will be the only way.

Yeah, here in Canada the magstrip has all but gone the way of the dodo - it's chip-and-pin or tap everywhere here. IIRC vendors here stopped taking magstrips before the Americans even.

Cards still have magstrips on them but I can't remember the last time one got used. Maybe a gas station.