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Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

frenchpress.thedispatch.com

331–340 of 366 posts

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at where we’re at today. We’ve “compromised” on every issue you listed; abortion is illegal in several states, the coal industry is slowly declining, vaccinations are encouraged but not required. Theoretically this is state #2 and everyone is happy… yeah no. You can’t “compromise” on abortion if you think it’s murder. Nor on climate change if your city will disappear under the waves in 30 years. Nor on Covid pol…

> You can’t “compromise” on abortion if you think it’s murder. You can if you're practical and think of it as working towards a common goal of decreasing abortion. Something everyone is in favor of. And face the fact that outlawing abortion doesn't eliminate abortion. Similar to how outlawing murder doesn't eliminate murder. If you increase comprehensive sex education, decrease stigma around discussing sex, increase…

If "you're practical" then the battle is already won. We wouldn't have a cultural health issue if everyone involved was practical. The people yelling on either side are not practical and such compromises will not fix the problem.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#332
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think this article is a pretty standard and trivial reading of the situation. I don't think its particularly thoughtful, and is probably upvoted because it conforms to the already-held views of many of the upvoters. Oh? So you were warning the left about censorship, for its own good? I *have* heard that one before. I'd prefer it stays flagged.

That could be. I didn't read it closely (I rarely do). On the other hand, if you're going to make a case like this, it really helps to make it without reverting to the key of ideological battle yourself. Otherwise the comment pattern-matches, in my sandblasted moderator brain, to the automatic dislike of one ideological side for any information they perceive as favoring the opposite side. Conformance to already-held…

I did read the whole article with hope in my heart that it’d be revealing. I actively listen and reach out to people on the ideological “right” that don’t share my views. I am queer, and yet, just the other day I was listening to a podcast run by an organization in Australia (the Australian Christian Lobby) that sees my identity and fighting for equal rights, as “identity politics”, and which sometimes successfully seeks to remove mentions of queer people from schools. But, I feel like I can only speak for the “left”. If I were to say there’s a “both sides” position I can take on these issues, I can’t, really. The right has fundamentally undermined the access to knowledge and resources that queer people need to just, survive. Often that just constitutes erasing all trace of our existence.

In my sandblasted political activist (not just on the internet) brain, what you’re effectively saying to me is that my considered and involved response to this, often repeated truism - that there are extremes on both sides, and that the left is just as bad if not worse in terms of censorship - by people who sit in a position that they bestow upon themselves, that of the middle path - is just a reflex.

If you read my other comments on this article you’ll see that before you made that judgment, I’d already formulated an alternate theory for the prevalence of contemporary censorship, one which is what I think a lot of people would see as a middle path answer - that much of this censorship arises from the very systems we now rely on to deliver speech. So often this discussion, uninterestingly, focuses on political and ideological opposition and ignores the huge elephant in the room. That’s my view, and I’m happy to be challenged on it.

In my sandblasted political activist brain, people often bestow themselves with the title of existing on that middle path, viewing takes and commentary with a disaffected logic that really allows them to rise above the world of ideological reflex and conformance. To me, that pattern matches to people lying to themselves, people that have the (orthodox) privilege to look at certain issues in this way because they don’t exist in a space where those issues have and have had real consequences. In such a space it is easy to bestow the title on oneself of taking that middle path.

And what even is the middle path? It is dispassionately examining both sides, right? Can I then bestow that title upon myself, given that I actively research and listen to these organizations? And what does it mean if I do truly fit the middle path and yet make a well considered choice to follow “left” politics? Does this perhaps mean that it is possible to be considered and researched and to appear to some on the middle path as reflexive and conformant? Does that perhaps mean that those on the middle path sometimes fall into the same reflexive pitfalls as the rest of us, appear to, unknowingly? To me, that’s troubling. We have people assuming a position of middle-path-ness, of considered and impassive curiosity, and yet are being just the exact thing they seek to escape. Do they know that’s happening?

Perhaps then, even internally bestowing that middle path viewpoint of impassive curiosity upon oneself is the ultimate substrate of bad faith. My sandblasted pattern matching can see nothing else.

I revert to an ideological side because that’s the side I get bestowed on me, and I don’t feel like I can speak from any perspective but my own. Am I on the left? What even is that? I proudly own my lack of impassive curiosity on this topic. To do anything else, wouldn’t be true and authentic. All things considered I don’t find the article interesting, it retreads old talking points and the logic could be absolutely flipped in this, to say that left censorship is just a reaction to the millenia of witch burnings and inquisitions. This article reinforces the view that there is a middle path on this topic, between the crazy ideological and conformant extremes. I speak my truth, and to reflexively not hear it because it is emotive, seems like a shame.

But on the other hand, thanks for listening. My “Reality by Consensus” submission went into the second chance page recently and did ok on the front page, which was a nice treat. Cheers!

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government has been on the losing side of a lot of free speech cases. Just because the first amendment exists doesn't mean the government respects it. Also the government is not a singular entity but many small ones. See Cohen v California for a good example of this.

Yeah but what's the comparative case that respects free speech more than the government?

Small communities where you can shop for a community that aligns with your desire to speak freely, and where non-free communities have alternatives.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#334
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this. Censorship on moral grounds, amplified by a lack of epistemic humility, is a key characteristic of modern western culture. Not only western, and modern, of course - I suspect that the feeling that 'I am more correct than the other' is a natural property of consciousness itself; an understanding of one's own mind is always more intuitive than a theory of mind. Anyways, I feel - and would be great…

The lack of epistemic humility feels like such a regression. We have basically gone from Feynman's idea that science is the belief in the ignorance of experts to the idea that anything that disagrees with experts in a field is misinformation and possibly should be censored.

Meh. FB and Twitter and YT throwing nutjobs under the bus is bad on a philosophical level, but the real problem is that ~40% of the population holds these beliefs. Which influences their day to day conduct, how they donate to campaigns, how the vote, how they communicate IRL and online. (And that FB, Twitter and YT is the platform.)

And as the submission title says, there's no way that simple prohibition can "solve" this. (It's hard to legislate epistemic hygiene.)

And. "Ironically" the folks whining about woke cancel culture support the folks actually banning and burning books by government decree.

Also, just for a sensible chuckle about this recent Spotify / JRE deplatforming: https://i.imgur.com/Ihf4ENv.mp4 (I don't think money changed his beliefs.)

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#335
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Sign of the Cross was 1932, pre-code! Also, https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023470/trivia?item=tr0684068 Thanks for the links!

Yes, of course it was. My comment was confusing. Having seen the Sign of the Cross but not Golddiggers of 1933 , I was asking whether anything tops the former as a pre-code movie.

I've seen Cross, but it was decades ago, and don't recall much from it. Golddiggers is just saucy fun. One of the songs is even titled "Petting in the Park" :-) The 60s generation that thinks they discovered sex should see that movie.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#336
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be. I didn't read it closely (I rarely do). On the other hand, if you're going to make a case like this, it really helps to make it without reverting to the key of ideological battle yourself. Otherwise the comment pattern-matches, in my sandblasted moderator brain, to the automatic dislike of one ideological side for any information they perceive as favoring the opposite side. Conformance to already-held…

I did read the whole article with hope in my heart that it’d be revealing. I actively listen and reach out to people on the ideological “right” that don’t share my views. I am queer, and yet, just the other day I was listening to a podcast run by an organization in Australia (the Australian Christian Lobby) that sees my identity and fighting for equal rights, as “identity politics”, and which sometimes successfully s…

I think you've actually misread this article, not so much because of its content but because (I'm guessing) you're unfamiliar with its author and some of its local context.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#337
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without their First Amendment rights, it is unlikely that Americans would even figure out if many parties might be a good idea. They'd also be unable to bring those into existence without it: freedom of expression, assembly, and the right to petition are the primary mechanism towards presenting a better future to others. Americans should be super concerned about attempts at eroding dialog between its citizens. The go…

why have parties at all? think about who the party serves and to what ends. is it for the people? no. it's for the politically ambitious to more easily coalesce power. parties are an indirection the populace doesn't need. it's something that makes campaigning easier and more centralized. centralization of power, whether in companies or in governments, is never for the betterment of the population, despite all the con…

I’ve long wished the same, banning political parties. As you’ve said here, it makes not thinking about who you’re voting for easy, which is a negative.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#338
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I doubt you will find any example where minorities suffered from too much free speech. people of minority X are subhumans and should not be allowed the same rights as the rest of us! Yes, minorities did not suffer from having free speech; they did suffer from others having it.

Whose speech do you think would have been censored though, the majority or the minority. Minority groups are always the ones who suffer from restrictions on speech. Supporting speech censorship will always lead to restrictions on minority groups, not the majority. I feel that there is confusion in this topic because there are so many people who think they are fighting hate-speech against minorities. Since it then fee…

> Minority groups are always the ones who suffer from restrictions on speech.

Minorities generally suffer more from any restriction, not just on free speech. As an example, CA is slowly increasing the cost of gun ownership in the state. Rich tech workers won’t have a problem buying a gun, but poor and otherwise less privileged groups now can’t afford to protect themselves. Then crime in those areas tick up, then more restrictions and so on.

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They all are pro free speech of things they like So they're not for free speech.

About as for free speech as Fox News.

And CNN, WaPo, and basically every other news org out there. But it’s nice that you just called out your enemy!

Re: Our nation cannot censor its way back to cultural health

#340
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should remember that the term free speech was coined many hundreds of years ago. During that timeframe, talking against the current ruler could lead to one’s death.

What you say still has consequences. Those might not be ideal at any time. The question is if you should be allowed to say it. If the line would be drawn there we must then discuss what you are allowed to think.

The problem today is that when what one says doesn’t have the desired consequences of some group, they then attempt to change the rules and stifle speech. This is why the line, which I acknowledge there is a legal line of free speech, should be clearly enumerated (which it is). And any company moving the line should be held accountable.
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