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You can change your number

signal.org

181–190 of 410 posts

Re: You can change your number

#181

It is early stage, but there is now an alternative to Signal that doesn't use phone numbers at all: https://xx.network/messenger/ While you can add your number to be searchable by others, it doesn't let strangers with your number know you signed up automatically, either. Full disclosure: I work on the infrastructure behind it.

We see many apps that promise to be secure. With due respect, why would someone trust this one?

> With due respect, why would someone trust this one?

It's the project of David Chaum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chaum

Which makes that messenger very interesting. It's also quantum-resistant from the get go. I think the beta just went live.

Re: You can change your number

#182

Why would supposedly secure communicator use actual phone number as identifier is beyond me. And everybody does that, either phone number or email. The only software I could find for anonymous communication was old Polish communicator http://gg.pl which uses arbitrary numbers as identifiers I understand that startups are scared that they won't be able to build up userbase from scratch but come on! Discord and Slack d…

Signal started off as a secure SMS replacement. Also, they mainly used numbers so they could leverage the social graph of phone contact lists. That way they didn't need to store any social graphs on their systems.

They must store something to route messages. Graph of random numbers is even better than the graph of actual numbers.

They just wanted to piggyback on already existing network of people contacts.

Standard startup "growth hack".

Re: You can change your number

#183
post #129
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use wire instead

Myself and another geeky friend tried to get out non-geeky friends away from messenger and whatsapp (well, at least get them to use Signal, talk to us via it and perhaps migrate, baby steps). Despite a really good uptake, some didn't make the move and it's definitely fragmented some of our online groups (makes it more interesting when physically catching up though, silver linings!). I'm not sure throwing yet another…

I totally get the fragmentation, I asked in some techy groups if they prefer matrix, signal, wire, anything. Virtually nobody knows anything but telegram (because we were currently on tg) and facebook messaging systems. So I made a choice and now the tg side is dead and the new platform is missing some people... yup fragmentation at work.

But at that moment a choice for a new system was made, it's not so much about doing yet another move right after the previous and fragmenting it further. Any particular reason you didn't try Wire in the first place, if you don't like the phone number requirement?

Re: You can change your number

#184
post #175

Can I sign up without a number? Why does Signal require an identifier that is very difficult and perhaps illegal to make anonymous?

Signal stores your contact list on your phone (and not on their servers). Unlike other devices, people typically only have one active phone at any time, which means that your contact list on your phone can be your contact list on any linked device (its primary, they're secondary).

If they didn't anchor to something that they knew you only had one of, then it's not clear which of your devices should be authoritative. The alternative is to store your contact list on their servers, but they don't do that because they aren't confident that they could do so in a way that keeps your contacts hidden from somebody who gained access to their servers.

Often, letting an adversary know who you associate with is just as dangerous as letting them know what you say to those people. Having your phone number be the key means that metadata security comes down to whether you lock your phone instead of whether the bad guys can get a warrant to compromise Signal's servers.

It's a worse user experience, but I can understand not wanting to be responsible for the bad things that happen when bad guys map a target's social network.

Re: You can change your number

#185
post #135
post #10

Not sure why you need a phone number? besides government and/or ad tracking. This is why I use Matrix/Element

What's a universal thing to the portable device that everyone has got in their pocket? I agree it's sucky and really there could be better ways, should be something none trackable and perhaps offer opt-in discovery via phone book. Have the option of decoupling it entirely from the phone. The government can track you a lot easier than pinging via signal btw. A lot easier!

> What's a universal thing to the portable device that everyone has got in their pocket?

All phones have internet connectivity... The phone number is completely useless to talk via the internet anyways...

> The government can track you a lot easier than pinging via signal btw. A lot easier!

I think that it is easier to connect a real-world identity to an internet account when they also have your phone number associated with the account...

Re: You can change your number

#186
post #162

Why would supposedly secure communicator use actual phone number as identifier is beyond me. And everybody does that, either phone number or email. The only software I could find for anonymous communication was old Polish communicator http://gg.pl which uses arbitrary numbers as identifiers I understand that startups are scared that they won't be able to build up userbase from scratch but come on! Discord and Slack d…

That looks like a great app. Thanks. Can you send SMS to a regular number with this?

I'm not sure if it's great. It just lets you communicate without endangering valuable resource that your phone number is.

> Can you send SMS to a regular number with this?

Why would it do that? Every phone has perfectly good sms app.

What would that even mean? Using sms as a transport layer? Or making messages passed through internet look like pseudo sms messages to someones phone number?

Re: You can change your number

#187
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the app constantly prompts for contact-list access, Signal's software-on-device definitely has the contact list. And, that software regularly re-sends that encrypted list to Signal's servers' SGX enclaves for their contact-discovery protocol. So whether or not Signal, or some entity near/around it, "has" the contact list is a matter of how much users trust Intel™ SGX® (as well as the chain of processes that d…

> Because the app constantly prompts for contact-list access AFAIK, it prompts at first, maybe a few times, but then stops. > Signal's software-on-device definitely has the contact list Definitely not required at all. Signal can use its own contact list. > that software regularly re-sends that encrypted list to Signal's servers' SGX enclaves for their contact-discovery protocol The SGX enclaves are not for contact di…

> AFAIK, it prompts at first, maybe a few times, but then stops.

It's been re-prompting me for years. If there's a time it stops, I haven't found it.

> I am not sure how Signal backups work or that user contacts, encrypted, are backed up to the SGX enclave. Where does it say that?

You're talking about backups. I'm talking about contact-discovery, wherein the client regularly sends (hashed versions of) all the phone numbers from your contacts (if you've shared them with the app) to Signal's servers, to let you (& them!) know you're both on Signal. How else would you think the notification you get when someone in your contact list joins Signal is generated?

Signal's claim that these oft-repeated intersection operations leave no permanent records on their servers seemed (last I looked deeply) based on the SGX attestation: that your list is encrypted such that only the trusted code will process it. If Signal, or hackers, or Intel Corp, or the "Intel Community" can compromise SGX's guarantees, they can decrypt & log the full set of phone numbers uploaded.

So again, it reduces to how much you trust Intel™ SGX®.

(Also note that even if you do trust SGX, someone you've never met can, by having your phone number in their contacts, receive a notification when you join Signal. And separately from any SGX-mediated threats, a persistent attacker with privileged views of your devices' network traffic – such as via an ISP or mobile carrier – can get, via the volume & timing of traffic to and from Signal's servers, a pretty good idea of who you're talking to.)

Re: You can change your number

#188
post #178

It is early stage, but there is now an alternative to Signal that doesn't use phone numbers at all: https://xx.network/messenger/ While you can add your number to be searchable by others, it doesn't let strangers with your number know you signed up automatically, either. Full disclosure: I work on the infrastructure behind it.

In years of browsing desktop-focused websites on my phone, this is the first website that lags at 2fps while I try to use it. High-end Samsung phone from ~2 years ago (second hand) so cpu power definitely isn't the issue. It also goes back up the page randomly if I scroll a certain way, maybe it tries to lock the view to a certain region rather than in between? No idea what's going on with that site but I can't check…

It protects metadata using a mixnet and the E2E encryption for authenticated channels uses post quantum cryptography(SIDH) to establish symmetric keys. The infrastructure is run by 3rd party node runners and there's an open source API for other applications in addition to the messenger being open source.

I'm not having issues with the website, but I will raise it with the web developers to see if they know what's happening.

Re: You can change your number

#189
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the app constantly prompts for contact-list access, Signal's software-on-device definitely has the contact list. And, that software regularly re-sends that encrypted list to Signal's servers' SGX enclaves for their contact-discovery protocol. So whether or not Signal, or some entity near/around it, "has" the contact list is a matter of how much users trust Intel™ SGX® (as well as the chain of processes that d…

I haven't kept up with what they're doing so grain of salt on this, but I think this is incorrect. What they're moving towards is a design that looks like what Apple did with their HSM quorum system. The contact information we're talking about is encrypted clientside, but with (usually) a memorable pin. Without countermeasures, memorable PINs are very easy to attack; SGX allows them to artificially limit guesses. As…

Yes, if you "break SGX", Signal's contact-intersection-privacy guarantees fall. Are you confident that SGX is unbroken?
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