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You can change your number

signal.org

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Re: You can change your number

#141

Post by XorNot »

toastercup wrote: post #115
advisedwang wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain this a bit more? Am I correct in understanding that you feel it hurts you when your contacts find out that you have signal installed, hence why signal shouldn't do it? What is the impact of someone who has your phone number knowing you are available over Signal? Are there communities out there where someone being on signal is a red flag?

There are subcultures that are not widely accepted where this is an issue. Take the furry subculture as an example. You might not want your family or college pals to see your furry profile picture and pseudonym, but you also might not be aware of the implications of using a messaging service where the primary ID is your phone number. Many people hand out their phone numbers permissively, as historically, they weren't…

Signal doesn't advertise a profile. It advertises a phone number - everything else is data you have locally. It will send a profile picture if you set one but that's it.

Re: You can change your number

#142

Post by wolverine876 »

theamk wrote: post #54
tptacek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're great compared to the alternative of simply storing a plaintext register of every pair of communicating parties on the server, which is how other messengers work. What's "good" about phone numbers is that they're tied clientside to a "buddy list" that everyone already keeps --- their contact list. They don't want phone numbers on the merits of phone numbers.

This decision seems pretty crazy to me, especially on the cell phones where a lot of apps require phone book access to function, and there is generally no way to give a different view to different apps. I understand that Signal wants to be blame it all on users, but the practical consequence of their design is that the moment people want to talk to a single person on Whatsapp, they give out Signal contact list to Fac…

> From the privacy standpoint, Signal having contact list would be better.

Signal can operate using its own contact list, without accessing your phone's central contacts.

Re: You can change your number

#143

Post by [deleted] »

Zedseayou wrote: post #130
samatman wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you don't understand how Signal works vis a vis phone numbers, or you're expecting something unreasonable. The behavior which is reliably objected to by someone on HN, every time Signal is mentioned, is that the app sends a user an alert when someone in their contacts list is on Signal. Phone numbers are the only resolution mechanism in Signal. Should that change? Separate question. Having someone's phone numb…

At least personally, the privacy violation is most clear if you are not part of a community that uses encrypted messaging by default (nearly everyone I know who uses SMS/FB messenger). The fact that someone I know has downloaded Signal then reveals that they now care about using encryption, which usually has the very obvious inference that they are involved in activism/have journalistic sources/other more nefarious a…

[deleted]

Re: You can change your number

#144

Post by scotty79 »

palata wrote: post #127
scotty79 wrote: post #67

Why would supposedly secure communicator use actual phone number as identifier is beyond me. And everybody does that, either phone number or email. The only software I could find for anonymous communication was old Polish communicator http://gg.pl which uses arbitrary numbers as identifiers I understand that startups are scared that they won't be able to build up userbase from scratch but come on! Discord and Slack d…

Two words: threat model.

I don't get it. I find my interlocutor knowing my phone number a severe threat to my privacy.

Re: You can change your number

#145

Post by TacticalCoder »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #133
tptacek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're great compared to the alternative of simply storing a plaintext register of every pair of communicating parties on the server, which is how other messengers work. What's "good" about phone numbers is that they're tied clientside to a "buddy list" that everyone already keeps --- their contact list. They don't want phone numbers on the merits of phone numbers.

They're also critical to getting people to move from WhatsApp. Next time when Facebook pulls something user-hostile (e.g. monetization with ads, yet another privacy policy change for the worse, ...) some people will simply install Signal. If they use phone numbers as (an) identifier, two people who do this independently can immediately switch to Signal. If A convinces B to switch, and C convinces D to switch, B and D…

> Next time when Facebook pulls something user-hostile ...

In my opinion with or without FB putting anything more hostile people are moving, in drones, to Telegram. I see regular people (non-tecchies at all) in my friends' circle joining Telegram regularly.

I'm not saying TG is better than Signal but I think TG's userbase is many orders of magnitude bigger than Signal's.

Re: You can change your number

#146

Post by wolverine876 »

gojomo wrote: post #119
tptacek wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal having the contact list means that they'd be subject to legal (and extralegal) process to obtain the entire contact list for everybody using the service, which is untenable for them. Again: Signal is not Discord or WhatsApp; these are different services with different primary objectives.

Because the app constantly prompts for contact-list access, Signal's software-on-device definitely has the contact list. And, that software regularly re-sends that encrypted list to Signal's servers' SGX enclaves for their contact-discovery protocol. So whether or not Signal, or some entity near/around it, "has" the contact list is a matter of how much users trust Intel™ SGX® (as well as the chain of processes that d…

> Because the app constantly prompts for contact-list access

AFAIK, it prompts at first, maybe a few times, but then stops.

> Signal's software-on-device definitely has the contact list

Definitely not required at all. Signal can use its own contact list.

> that software regularly re-sends that encrypted list to Signal's servers' SGX enclaves for their contact-discovery protocol

The SGX enclaves are not for contact discovery. Contact discovery worked long before Signal implemented the SGX enclaves.

As I understand it: The SGX enclaves store a crypto key that Signal adds to the user's password, to enable data migration: Users tend to choose weak passwords; if Signal truly wants their data to be secure, strong passwords aren't realistic. Their solution is ingenious (IMHO): 1) Append a random key to strengthen the password chosen by the user. 2) A locally stored key would be a big problem for data migration, such as lost phones; the key would be lost too, and thus all the user data. 3) Therefore, they store the key centrally, as securely as possible (in the SGX enclave). That does make the key more vulnerable, but if you choose a strong password then it's irrelevant - the attacker needs to defeat both the key and your password. You can also disable this backup feature if you like. Some reading (partly because I might misremember a detail or two):

https://signal.org/blog/secure-value-recovery/

https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2020/07/10/a-few-th...

I am not sure how Signal backups work or that user contacts, encrypted, are backed up to the SGX enclave. Where does it say that?

> So whether or not Signal, or some entity near/around it, "has" the contact list is a matter of how much users trust Intel™ SGX® (as well as the chain of processes that deliver/update the Signal software on-device.)

Again, if you choose a strong password then you only need to trust yourself, and I think you can disable it altogether.

Re: You can change your number

#147

Post by itake »

XorNot wrote: post #141
toastercup wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are subcultures that are not widely accepted where this is an issue. Take the furry subculture as an example. You might not want your family or college pals to see your furry profile picture and pseudonym, but you also might not be aware of the implications of using a messaging service where the primary ID is your phone number. Many people hand out their phone numbers permissively, as historically, they weren't…

Signal doesn't advertise a profile. It advertises a phone number - everything else is data you have locally. It will send a profile picture if you set one but that's it.

Does it advertise your username? If I don't have the name of the contact, will Signal share my username or does it just say "this number in your list has joined signal, and here is their profile?"

Re: You can change your number

#148

Post by subb »

samatman wrote: post #88
valleyer wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just a shade away from the typical "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument, and is in my opinion equally invalid. Let people decide for themselves what in their lives is OK to share with others. You don't need to know the reason why.

Either you don't understand how Signal works vis a vis phone numbers, or you're expecting something unreasonable. The behavior which is reliably objected to by someone on HN, every time Signal is mentioned, is that the app sends a user an alert when someone in their contacts list is on Signal. Phone numbers are the only resolution mechanism in Signal. Should that change? Separate question. Having someone's phone numb…

Whether or not I use Signal is private info, which is separate from my phone number info. Signal is mixing the two as if it was the same.

A username kinda restore that, but it could be taken a step further and ask for a secret token when adding contacts. That way you know exactly who has you in their contact list, and this token could be revoked (equivalent of blocking the person).

Re: You can change your number

#150

Post by bt1a »

scotty79 wrote: post #144
palata wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two words: threat model.

I don't get it. I find my interlocutor knowing my phone number a severe threat to my privacy.

Sure - that's why Signal is for secure communication between individuals who have some level of trust. There's nothing stopping your interlocutor from leaking all of the messages you send to them, what's the big issue with them having your number?
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