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Thank You, Valve

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Re: Thank You, Valve

#351

Post by ribit »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #330
ribit wrote: post #313

I vehemently disagree with sentiment expressed in the article. Sure, on the surface the work done Valve does significantly improve the state of Linux gaming. But this is not Linux gaming. This is Windows gaming under Linux. We need to think about the long-term effects, about maintaining a healthy ecosystem. I cannot imagine how delegating Linux and Vulkan to be a long-term emulator of DX12 and Win is supposed to be h…

The Linux Desktop community has had 20 years to make Linux Desktop a reasonable, if not attractive, platform for gaming and game development and they have consistently and utterly failed at it. Valve did the only thing that was going to work.

That is true. Proton is a pragmatic solution. But it hardly a satisfactory solution, and I worry that it is not sustainable solution either. I do not really have a horse in the run personally, as I am not a Linux user (my platform of choice is macOS), but as a GPU programming enthusiast I dislike anything that gives Microsoft more power.

And of course, let us not mistake Valve's intensions. They couldn't care less about Linux users. They are simply leveraging Linux as a low-cost platform to get into the console business.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#352

Post by bee_rider »

throwoutway wrote: post #44
Rooster61 wrote: post #28

I dig most of this article, and I do applaud the work Valve is doing for the Linux gaming ecosystem, but I draw a line at supporting kernel level anti-cheat drivers. That trend in gaming bothers me to no end, and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one. The presence of 15 year old script kiddies using aimbots does NOT IN ANY WAY justify having kernel level control over my machine, Linux or otherwise. V…

I’m opposed to kernel drivers/root kits too, but I wouldn’t install this on my daily driver. I’d have a separate partition with a fresh Linux install. So I don’t personally have a problem with it as I’d just treat it as a gaming system that I consider compromised. I wouldn’t do any banking or browsing on it

This seems like a real benefit to Linux. Just installing it on a new partition would be a tricky proposition on Windows. In Linux it is the obvious solution. As an added bonus, you could look into doing some of the latency tuning stuff and not have to worry about messing up your work partition.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#353

Post by oehpr »

dijit wrote: post #233
Rooster61 wrote: post #28

I dig most of this article, and I do applaud the work Valve is doing for the Linux gaming ecosystem, but I draw a line at supporting kernel level anti-cheat drivers. That trend in gaming bothers me to no end, and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one. The presence of 15 year old script kiddies using aimbots does NOT IN ANY WAY justify having kernel level control over my machine, Linux or otherwise. V…

This comment deserves a much more detailed response than I'm able to give at the moment, but I can give some very brief thoughts: Let me say that I have been working in AAA online game development for more than 7 years now; I have worked on games that had 10's of millions of players, and these were full fat $60 AAA games. Cheating was the second[0] biggest issue of our games, it sucked the entire enjoyment out- getti…

I would submit that this is more an issue of trust than it is an issue of forcing client machines into compliance. Because of the industries persistent belief that anti-cheat is somehow an effective strategy, let alone a morally acceptable one, has meant that development of systems that develop player trust in others has totally atrophied.

This patterns of thinking "Well I'll just download a binary onto my clients machine and force it into compliance, then I can throw all of them into a big pot and they'll all mix just fine!" Is a kind of persistent insanity that is leading to your woes, more than it is the lack of a stiffer boot to land on the necks of client machines.

  "If we just control the platform"
  "If we just control the hardware"
  "If we just control the software"
  "If we just control everything".

  "And what of tools to moderate bad actors?"
  "Eh? Sure, here's a kick function."

Re: Thank You, Valve

#354

Post by cinntaile »

skinkestek wrote: post #282
marcus_holmes wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but Steam has a near-monopoly on games, Spotify has a near-monopoly on music, and both of these are working great for me as a consumer. Netflix had a monopoly, but now not, and it's shit. I have to work out what platform a show is currently streaming on, and decide whether it's worth paying for that to see the show, and the lineups are constantly changing. Honestly, going back to piracy for video is looking good…

> OK, but Steam has a near-monopoly on games, Playstation, XBox and Nintendo all want a word with you first. After that Fortnite and PUBG developers are waiting. > Spotify has a near-monopoly on music, ITunes wants a word with you too it seems. > and both of these are working great for me as a consumer. Good. That is because both Valve and Spotify know how vulnerable they are. > Netflix had a monopoly, but now not, a…

I think he means Steam on PC.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#355

Post by jvanderbot »

ribit wrote: post #313

I vehemently disagree with sentiment expressed in the article. Sure, on the surface the work done Valve does significantly improve the state of Linux gaming. But this is not Linux gaming. This is Windows gaming under Linux. We need to think about the long-term effects, about maintaining a healthy ecosystem. I cannot imagine how delegating Linux and Vulkan to be a long-term emulator of DX12 and Win is supposed to be h…

OP lauds their WINE-like extensions, but there is much more they are doing.

Not least of which: Making STEAM run perfectly in linux so that linux-native games have a seamless installation / management platform for linux-native machines.

Then of course steamdeck, which brings linux to those who would not otherwise try it and further incentivizing developers to target linux native.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#356

Post by ineedasername »

ribit wrote: post #313

I vehemently disagree with sentiment expressed in the article. Sure, on the surface the work done Valve does significantly improve the state of Linux gaming. But this is not Linux gaming. This is Windows gaming under Linux. We need to think about the long-term effects, about maintaining a healthy ecosystem. I cannot imagine how delegating Linux and Vulkan to be a long-term emulator of DX12 and Win is supposed to be h…

If Valve makes it possible to play many/most games on Linux then an influx of Linux converts may incentivise more native development.

Certainly the current market has not created those incentives, whereas a massive backcatalog w/ a (potentially) popular portable device may move that ball forward if it means there's a built in market for it going forward.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#357

Post by jvanderbot »

ribit wrote: post #351
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Linux Desktop community has had 20 years to make Linux Desktop a reasonable, if not attractive, platform for gaming and game development and they have consistently and utterly failed at it. Valve did the only thing that was going to work.

That is true. Proton is a pragmatic solution. But it hardly a satisfactory solution, and I worry that it is not sustainable solution either. I do not really have a horse in the run personally, as I am not a Linux user (my platform of choice is macOS), but as a GPU programming enthusiast I dislike anything that gives Microsoft more power. And of course, let us not mistake Valve's intensions. They couldn't care less ab…

Much more than that, in my mind, is linux-native steam installations.

I can now play many games directly on my linux laptop without tinkering with anything. It's fantastic and has done more to make me optimistic about linux as a desktop / gaming platform than anything else.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#358

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

ribit wrote: post #351
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Linux Desktop community has had 20 years to make Linux Desktop a reasonable, if not attractive, platform for gaming and game development and they have consistently and utterly failed at it. Valve did the only thing that was going to work.

That is true. Proton is a pragmatic solution. But it hardly a satisfactory solution, and I worry that it is not sustainable solution either. I do not really have a horse in the run personally, as I am not a Linux user (my platform of choice is macOS), but as a GPU programming enthusiast I dislike anything that gives Microsoft more power. And of course, let us not mistake Valve's intensions. They couldn't care less ab…

> but as a GPU programming enthusiast I dislike anything that gives Microsoft more power.

I don't see how this gives Microsoft more power, if anything it takes it from them. People are not dependent on Windows to run Windows games, and developers can target Wine directly if they wish.

> And of course, let us not mistake Valve's intensions. They couldn't care less about Linux users. They are simply leveraging Linux as a low-cost platform to get into the console business.

I've been watching Valve since the beginning and that's not quite how I read it. I do think they're pretty neutral on Linux, that much is true, but in general Valve has consistently fought for openness in gaming. Pretty much anyone can sell on Steam, Valve will let you bypass the 30% cut and sell Steam keys on other stores if you want, they created the OpenVR SDK while Facebook did everything it could to close theirs, etc. Their moves on Linux aren't about having a console, it's about having an alternative to Windows so Microsoft has less control over their (and the rest of PC gaming's) future.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#359

Post by vintermann »

6yyyyyy wrote: post #304
vintermann wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed at how much money some people have to burn on new accounts. Looking at minecraft servers, there are so ridiculously many people banned. I've wondered if there's some sort of economy here, i.e. someone with a ton of stolen accounts monetizing them by offering to cheat all day on your competitor's server.

Oh yes, absolutely. There are a number of "alt shops" selling Minecraft accounts accounts for a few cents each. Most of these accounts have security questions set, so you can't change the email and truly "take ownership" of the account, but it's good enough for cheating on servers. Some shops even have an API for generating accounts or tokens, so your hack client can have a feature where you get a new account right f…

The last point sounds like a security vulnerability of some sort? It shouldn't be hard for Mojang to issue unforgeable tokens.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#360

Post by neogodless »

ribit wrote: post #344
neogodless wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone better educated than me can probably help me out here, but I think you're either misunderstanding what some things are, or mixing up your terminology. Proton is the emulation layer created by Valve. Vulkan is a cross-platform graphics API. Your point might still stand, but it's worth debating. Without Proton, gaming on Linux is limited to native Linux games. With it, the story changes. Someone who likes PC ga…

I was not mentioning Proton explicitly. But the core of my point is that Proton de-facto delegates Vulkan to be a second class citizen whose purpose it is to serve as a backend of implementing a Microsoft-compatible technology stack. With Proton working well, the incentive to develop native Linux applications and games goes to wards zero — why would you even bother if you can just develop and test for Windows and let…

Are you saying it's the case that running a game on Proton on Linux is a superior experience to running it natively on Vulkan?

That's surprising to me, but yes, if it's better than a native graphics API, it's probably better for everyone if developers stick to DirectX.

On the other hand, I don't think you addressed my point (with my assumption that games run better natively on Linux in Vulkan). If gamers are just going to skip Linux entirely without Proton, how is that better for Linux gaming, than if gamers migrate to Linux using Proton for an acceptable emulated experience, then there are more Linux gamers, and developing for Vulkan has some incentive it didn't have before.

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