/r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification • Hacker News Board

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#151

Post by shakes_mcjunkie » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

honkdaddy wrote: post #129

BitwiseFool wrote: post #40

This reminds me of "Defund the Police", wherein supporters would try to convince others that the slogan did not literally mean what it says. Like AntiWork, It seems to have been started by those who genuinely wanted to abolish the police. But as time went on people joined who instead wanted to reform the police by dramatically cutting back what they were meant to respond to. But the slogan stayed, and was very mislea…

Here in Canada, many of those same voices are now begging the Ottawa police to take on a _more_ violent and confrontational approach in response to the ongoing protest. The hypocrisy is absolutely surreal to me.

Is it really surprising that all kinds of different people are a part of a political movement? You would find this same kind of diversity of thought in any group of people.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#152

Post by slothtrop » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

Pryde wrote: post #121

slothtrop wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that would be unequivocally a good thing. Why? Work is a net positive in people's lives.

I disagree with this, at least as a blanket statement. Plenty of workplaces are a deeply negative factor in people's lives. If what you're saying is really more along the lines of "having a project and way to spend the time is a net positive", then I completely agree, but I don't think that has to be tightly coupled to work (as in employment) per se.

Those problems have nothing to do with the nature of work. Bad management, low pay and too many hours have no bearing on the importance of work.

It allows you to contribute to society and get social validation. "Personal projects" typically do neither (if they did, they would be lucrative). Even the boring stuff can be meditative. Provided the conditions are adequate, work is good for people and society at large.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#153

Post by wonderwonder » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #9

I think this post may be, in its parlance, "sanewashing" workaholism. For example, let's take this post from the subreddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/lo6wov/my_dads_a_... > "My dads a “working class hero” I wanna punch him in the face, we wanted to visit this weekend, we haven’t seen him in 2 months due to covid, we have three kids and so does he (6, 8 and 9) his wife passed away 2 years ago, and he’…

To be fair if I was the dad I would not want to see this kid either nor anyone else that states they want to punch me in the face. Dad worked for 20 years to provide for his family, lost his wife and keeps providing. Wonder how much of the dad's salary still goes to supporting this 'kid' who has 3 kids of his own. 50 hours a week working is really not that much in the scheme of things, its not optimal but its not really workaholic level.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#154

Post by geewee » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

diogenesjunior wrote: post #108

tgb wrote: post #28

I think this article is trying to have its cake and eat it too. If the sub has been sanewashed and overrun by average left-of-center opinions and become wildly popular, then how can it be true that Doreen still represents the movement? The movement changed, as the article points out, and therefore Doreen was a terrible choice of representative. The fact that she predates the change is exactly the reason she is not re…

>have its cake and eat it too whenever i have cake, i tend to eat it also?

Well then you don't have it anymore ;)

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#155

Post by toyg » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #50

I liked the factual analysis and the story of /r/antiwork. But regarding the actual topic of work I think it sets up a false dichotomy; that one is either a sane normal person who thinks productivity is good, or an out-of-touch anarcho-communist. There is actually a very large middle ground which represents the most balanced view towards work; that most work is a necessary evil. It's not that work is good or desirabl…

Technology and automation already allow us to have a 10-hour work week with the same lifestyle.

Capitalism, on the other hand...

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#156

Post by JSavageOne » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

I remember stumbling upon /r/antiwork a few years ago and being so happy I'd stumbled upon a thriving movement that so effectively criticized one of the core principles of society that everyone takes for granted - that everyone must effectively sell their labor to someone else (unless they're rich enough to opt out, or clever enough to create some business or invest their way out).

To me anti-work is the recognition that forced wage labor is not acceptable, and that technological advancement and automation should enable greater freedom for individuals to spend their time how they choose. We could already have this reality today if we just implemented a universal basic income, but until the boomers retire from office that's just not happening.

I haven't browsed the subreddit in forever but just took a look, and it's sad to see it's just a bunch of stupid memes now. Every decent subreddit eventually devolved into a bunch of stupid memes. Travel and digital nomad subreddits are just people posting Instagram style pictures of themselves or asking the same dumb questions over and over again. Crypto subreddits seem to consist primarily of 14 year olds asking "when moon".

Reddit in 2008 was amazing - similar to Hacker News in comment quality (which has also lowered significantly). I watched the site devolve - with the advent of memes, pun threads (thankfully that's gone now), hivemind, and quality discourse being replaced by sarcastic low-effort one-liners and downvote sabotaging of any contrarian viewpoints regardless of the substance of one's post.

We need better alternatives to Reddit, or Reddit needs to fix the mess because the post/comment quality there is straight trash there. All the default homepage subreddits are trash. I don't know how any co-founder of Reddit could look at Reddit today and be proud of what they've created knowing the forum of intelligent and productive discourse it could've been.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#157

Post by jimmaswell » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #40

This reminds me of "Defund the Police", wherein supporters would try to convince others that the slogan did not literally mean what it says. Like AntiWork, It seems to have been started by those who genuinely wanted to abolish the police. But as time went on people joined who instead wanted to reform the police by dramatically cutting back what they were meant to respond to. But the slogan stayed, and was very mislea…

At face value, many police departments do seem overfunded. In many small towns you'll see too many patrol cars for the area, new patrol cars too often, unnecessary improvements to the department, etc. while other areas of the budget languish because it's politically unpopular to go against the police department and people fear retaliation for advocating against them.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#158

Post by panarky » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #115

gruez wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This reminds me of "Defund the Police", wherein supporters would try to convince others that the slogan did not literally mean what it says. I have a hard time figuring out whether: 1) all the people who are saying "no we don't really mean defund the police" are just the moderate elements battling it out with the extreme elements (eg. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol... ) 2) most of them…

"Defund" can be a relative term that doesn't necessarily mean to fully remove funding. E.g. we've had decades of hyperbole where relatively small cuts to defense funding are referred to by opponents as "defunding" US troops. We spend a whole lot on policing compared to most other developed nations, and we're not getting terrific outcomes either on civil liberties or crime rates. It might be time to take a different a…

> we've had decades of hyperbole where relatively small cuts to defense funding are referred to by opponents as "defunding" US troops

making defense and police funding continue to increase but at a slightly slower rate is referred to by opponents as "defunding"

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#159

Post by HideousKojima » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

asojfdowgh wrote: post #71

> You’ve come across the gentrifiers before, I’m sure. They browse the front page of reddit and the trending tab of YouTube, buy Ruth Bader Ginsberg figurines and wear Che Guevara T-shirts. So, gentrifiers are generally made out of straw is the take-away? likewise, "no one wants to mine coal" me, I do, I wanna do that, I wanna work out the refining process, I want to lathe 1000 of the same thing. Not every personalit…

>likewise, "no one wants to mine coal" me, I do, I wanna do that, I wanna work out the refining process, I want to lathe 1000 of the same thing. Not every personality is what the author can come up with in his head, other kinds of people exist too

You may want to, but the kind of people who talk in online discussions about "What will your job be after the revolution" overwhelmingly do not.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#160

Post by the_snooze » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

shakes_mcjunkie wrote: post #149

the_snooze wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Defund the Police That slogan was straight up political malpractice. If you have to explain your position, then you're already losing. Something like "government accountability" or "serve the people" probably could have gotten wider support than "defund the police."

You could say literally the same thing about any political slogan. For example, please explain "government accountability" or "serve the people"? That literally could be anything. Another example, "Medicare for All", pretty straight forward, but what does it look like as a policy? https://www.propublica.org/article/medicare-for-all-is-not-m... Or "Make American Great Again" or "Build Back Better". Any slogan can be q…

>Make American Great Again

I think this is a really good example of an effective slogan, both in Reagan's initial use and later Trump's. It has some really critical properties: it's easy to comprehend, while also nimble enough to fit anyone's notions, and you can't argue against it directly.

If you have to direct people to "Google it," then your slogan is a non-starter. I'm not a marketing expert (hence the rather dry alternatives), but I am aware of how wildly effective conservative-leaning messaging is compared to the often off-putting (even if well-intentioned) liberal-messaging on the other side. So then, why not use the same tactics? Government accountability is a good thing, and you really can't argue against it. If it makes sense to demand a lot of accountability at a high standard from teachers (and teacher unions), then the very same demands should be put on police (and police unions). Use the same exact messaging.