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Thank You, Valve

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Re: Thank You, Valve

#291

Post by jstummbillig »

busterarm wrote: post #82
dagw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I played competitive video games seriously I would absolutely want them to take cheating seriously and take any necessary measure to stop it. At the same time I think they should also make the most serious kernel/driver level anti-cheat software optional. If you don't to want to install it you can still play the game, just not on any of the 'pro' servers. Think of it a bit like doping tests in sports. As long as y…

The serious cheats in competitive games these days don't rely on hacking the game anymore. They use a separate computer connected taking your HDMI out as an input and then controls your mouse and keyboard inputs. They use ML models and OpenCV. You watch the second computer's monitor and it draws huge boxes around things you shoot and it assists your aim. It doesn't even have to be a PC game, you can do the same with…

> Kernel level anti-cheat is meaningless.

If kernel level anti-cheat lead to "serious cheats" having to resort to the above, then kernel level anti-cheat is actually pretty fucking effective.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#293

Post by gurkendoktor »

judge2020 wrote: post #105
Rooster61 wrote: post #28

I dig most of this article, and I do applaud the work Valve is doing for the Linux gaming ecosystem, but I draw a line at supporting kernel level anti-cheat drivers. That trend in gaming bothers me to no end, and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one. The presence of 15 year old script kiddies using aimbots does NOT IN ANY WAY justify having kernel level control over my machine, Linux or otherwise. V…

> Add on the fact that these programs are black boxes by design, and all of the sudden a company essentially has free reign to do whatever they want with your machine under your nose. Unless you run flatpak, nix, lxc containers, or some other process isolation scheme, all programs on eg. A debian desktop have this sort of free reign. It’s not uncommon for accidents to happen that take out chunks of a system[0]. 0: ht…

> Unless you run flatpak...

Well yes, sandboxing should be the goal! Installing Steam from Flathub is a good first step on desktop machines. But as long as games require anti-cheat software at the kernel level, I'll keep a Windows partition around to sandbox the gaming world as a whole.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#294

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

Karsteski wrote: post #247
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #18

In a very practical way, I agree with the thought behind the post. Still, I want to offer a counter, because as linux is becoming more and more popular ( I myself am an anecdote since I recently jumped to PopOS as my main driver ), I worry that it will become another Windows. Linux principles are slowly being eroded for the ease and convenience of the user. It is both awesome and awful. Convenience destroyed mobile t…

Can you elaborate? Would you prefer the Linux ecosystem to remain less user-friendly, to maintain whatever principles you have in mind? Also, what principles are you referring to?

I think the biggest one is this:

"Each Program Does One Thing Well."

followed by:

"Store Data in Flat Text Files."

I can't really say new programs adhere to either of these principles. In fact, it seems those seem to be actively shunned. I enjoy PopOS and I still have Vietnam flashback to my very first linux install way back when ( I installed it next to Win95 and results were not fun since it was my dad's PC ), but some things were better.. even if they were less user-friendly.

So yes. I think my real answer is yes -- it should be less user-friendly if that is the only way to maintain those pricinples.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#295

Post by jowsie »

maccard wrote: post #100
oefrha wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? You can totally build an aimbot using nothing but image recognition.

And when we get to the point that those are available to anyone with $40 and a credit card they'll be handled. Until then they're a theoretical attack for all intents and purposes.

This has been a thing since day 1 of Overwatch at the very least. Most aimbots being used didn't touch the executable or memory at all, they were called 'color bots' because all they had to do was match pixel color values. They were basic enough a concept you could build them in AutoIT macro software along with ramp up and down features so you weren't just instantly spamming headshots, but instead incrememently your aim would get better. They became so sophisticated that you could be sat behind someone physically using one and not be sure they were cheating or not.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#296

Post by Karsteski »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #294
Karsteski wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? Would you prefer the Linux ecosystem to remain less user-friendly, to maintain whatever principles you have in mind? Also, what principles are you referring to?

I think the biggest one is this: "Each Program Does One Thing Well." followed by: "Store Data in Flat Text Files." I can't really say new programs adhere to either of these principles. In fact, it seems those seem to be actively shunned. I enjoy PopOS and I still have Vietnam flashback to my very first linux install way back when ( I installed it next to Win95 and results were not fun since it was my dad's PC ), but…

I don't see why either of those things is contradictory to a good user experience, ngl

Re: Thank You, Valve

#297

Post by quitit »

I'm fine with people praising Valve for utilising linux to advance their commercial interests. It's an example of a "win win" situation.

However I notice on these forums in particular when other tech companies do similar it isn't seen so charitably.

I speak with a slightly cynical tone because I've seen this story before - the catalyst to the changing public opinion has been less about what the companies actually do and more about when competitors emerge and engage PR campaigns to recast the incumbent as evil and the newcomer as a saviour.

One should keep their eyes open to see if the same happens to Valve.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#298

Post by [deleted] »

Ragnarork wrote: post #278
Rooster61 wrote: post #28

I dig most of this article, and I do applaud the work Valve is doing for the Linux gaming ecosystem, but I draw a line at supporting kernel level anti-cheat drivers. That trend in gaming bothers me to no end, and I refuse to knowingly install a game that features one. The presence of 15 year old script kiddies using aimbots does NOT IN ANY WAY justify having kernel level control over my machine, Linux or otherwise. V…

Very interesting to see this criticism in a topic about Valve, who don't go there with VAC, and are often criticized for not going the kernel level anti-cheat route (by a chunk of the playerbase that thinks it will solve cheating). They even backpedaled when people found out that they were analyzing your DNS cache on Windows to search for known cheat provider websites.[0] [0]. https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments…

[deleted]

Re: Thank You, Valve

#299

Post by fartcannon »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #266
yepthatsreality wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plasma has given me everything I could need. For 80% of people that’s going to be a web browser. Outside of that I had no problems migrating my work flows to Linux native apps. There are plenty.

> For 80% of people that’s going to be a web browser. Why do some people think this is a point in Linux Desktop's favor? Anyone who just needs a web browser could use ChromeOS. Those of us who use a desktop for other things have legitimate criticisms and this is an unfair (and lazy) dismissal.

KDE has been the best desktop experience since 3.0 in 2002.

There's no comparison if you value your time and mental state.

Re: Thank You, Valve

#300

Post by krajzeg »

Vermeulen wrote: post #31

As a game dev it surprises me the constant push from some Linux players to still make a native Linux version, considering how good Valve's Proton layer is. I don't think they understand that while making a new Linux build can be trivial (in Unity), dealing with all the support issues for that isn't. I don't have time to track down audio issues for some random Linux version for 0.001% of players Yet if I say I'll only…

For another perspective, I don't think I've ever gotten actual hate mail for the game only working through Proton. Most people just go "oh, OK, cool". I usually explain why proper Linux support is hard for a small studio like mine.

I did get some "I won't be buying then", which is fair.

I do have to second the sentiment from other comments about excellent bug reports from Linux players. They usually auto-include logs, specs and sometimes even repro steps in their first bug report. Other players rarely do so.

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