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/r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

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Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#121

Post by Pryde »

slothtrop wrote: post #70
lukev wrote: post #50

I liked the factual analysis and the story of /r/antiwork. But regarding the actual topic of work I think it sets up a false dichotomy; that one is either a sane normal person who thinks productivity is good, or an out-of-touch anarcho-communist. There is actually a very large middle ground which represents the most balanced view towards work; that most work is a necessary evil. It's not that work is good or desirabl…

> that would be unequivocally a good thing. Why? Work is a net positive in people's lives.

I disagree with this, at least as a blanket statement. Plenty of workplaces are a deeply negative factor in people's lives.

If what you're saying is really more along the lines of "having a project and way to spend the time is a net positive", then I completely agree, but I don't think that has to be tightly coupled to work (as in employment) per se.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#122

Post by Aunche »

tgb wrote: post #28

I think this article is trying to have its cake and eat it too. If the sub has been sanewashed and overrun by average left-of-center opinions and become wildly popular, then how can it be true that Doreen still represents the movement? The movement changed, as the article points out, and therefore Doreen was a terrible choice of representative. The fact that she predates the change is exactly the reason she is not re…

If you subscribe to a subreddit literally called antiwork that clearly states its ideology in its sidebar, you shouldn't be surprised by Doreen celebrating laziness as a virtue. Just like with politicians, just because your representative is a disliked doesn't mean that they aren't your legitimate one.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#123

Post by parkingrift »

This article acts as if Doreen and other antiwork mods were just sad passengers as these events happened to them. Does the author know and understand that subreddit moderators have absolute authority?

If the mods of antiwork wanted to have a sub for anarchism they could have, should have, and still can forcefully define the rules. Ban people, posts, and content that don't fit their anarchist goals.

...but if the mods of antiwork want to have a wildly popular sub, they can't do that. The mods made their choice, and they chose popularity over ideology. To call that a "tragedy", "sanewashing", or "social gentrification" is pretty disingenuous and revisionist.

However, it's not too late. If the mods really truly want an anarchist sub they can go ahead and start enforcing content rules. Today. Right now. The sub will slowly die away, but they can have the community they want.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#124

Post by nradov »

JSavageOne wrote: post #105
pmorici wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I happened upon the r/AntiWork comments section from time to time before that Fox News segment and it always struck me as full of people who were making every excuse not to take responsibility for their own circumstances and who have a fantasy that low skill jobs should some how pay enough to be life long careers instead of viewing them as stepping stones to bigger and better things.

For me antiwork is just anti forced wage labour. If we had a universal basic income, then that would be accomplished and people would be free to work on whatever they want. If technology is advanced enough to be able to afford this which I'd argue is already the case, I don't see why this shouldn't be the case.

Technology isn't advanced enough to be able to afford this. Have you ever actually worked in a factory or on a farm? Have you done the math to calculate how much taxes would have to raise in order to give everyone a UBI at even the US federal poverty level? This is magical thinking disconnected from the reality of how the economy works.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#125

Post by Centigonal »

diogenesjunior wrote: post #108
tgb wrote: post #28

I think this article is trying to have its cake and eat it too. If the sub has been sanewashed and overrun by average left-of-center opinions and become wildly popular, then how can it be true that Doreen still represents the movement? The movement changed, as the article points out, and therefore Doreen was a terrible choice of representative. The fact that she predates the change is exactly the reason she is not re…

>have its cake and eat it too whenever i have cake, i tend to eat it also?

it's an idiom that's confusing because of how "have ... and" can imply both a sequence of events and simultaneous events.

You can either eat your cake or have your cake. You cannot eat your cake, and then also have it too.

More on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_can%27t_have_your_cake_and...

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#126

Post by jklinger410 »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #40

This reminds me of "Defund the Police", wherein supporters would try to convince others that the slogan did not literally mean what it says. Like AntiWork, It seems to have been started by those who genuinely wanted to abolish the police. But as time went on people joined who instead wanted to reform the police by dramatically cutting back what they were meant to respond to. But the slogan stayed, and was very mislea…

Actually defund the police means exactly what it says. The proposal is that police budgets get diverted to mental health and rehabilitation programs.

The budget moved to mental health & rehab would be handled under a different agency than the police, which is something that is constantly argued over. Many opponents of defund the police agree with the overall budget reallocation, but they believe the budget should not change agencies.

What opponents need to understand about the movement is that police would have less to do, as many emergency calls would be handled by actual professionals. So if they still need their mini tanks, assault weapons, and SWAT gear, they can still make a case based on their newly lightened responsibilities.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#127

Post by thebean11 »

JSavageOne wrote: post #105
pmorici wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I happened upon the r/AntiWork comments section from time to time before that Fox News segment and it always struck me as full of people who were making every excuse not to take responsibility for their own circumstances and who have a fantasy that low skill jobs should some how pay enough to be life long careers instead of viewing them as stepping stones to bigger and better things.

For me antiwork is just anti forced wage labour. If we had a universal basic income, then that would be accomplished and people would be free to work on whatever they want. If technology is advanced enough to be able to afford this which I'd argue is already the case, I don't see why this shouldn't be the case.

I don't think it's the case yet..the unemployment rate is under 5%. What jobs do you think could be eliminated?

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#128

Post by zhdc1 »

nothis wrote: post #53
Besticle wrote: post #5

It takes one bad experience to ruin a reputation. Guy went on Fox news (against the communities) wishes and made millions of people's first impression of r/AntiWork to be negative. In the modern world optics are EVERYTHING and that cannot be understated. Imho the first thing they need to change (which they have with their move to the new subreddit) is renaming it from r/AntiWork to r/WorkReform. Most of the sub (I'd…

What I'm noticing the past 5 to 10 years is the right outsmarting the left in activism and public imagery. Not with arguments, with wording. It's hard to watch. One way I'm trying to make sense of is the following: The left is used to being the underdog, the ones fighting for reform against powerful, conservative institutions. They are used to not really stand a chance, it's the spirit that counts. In that position,…

> One way I'm trying to make sense of is the following: The left is used to being the underdog, the ones fighting for reform against powerful, conservative institutions.

This isn't necessarily true. The Democrats in the US had a near stranglehold on Federal politics from the 1950s through the mid-1990s. The Republican ascendence in the 1990s came about in part because Democrat-oriented institutions; e.g., large blue-chip companies, labor unions, and the Federal government itself were viewed as inefficient and corrupt by a portion of the voting population.

> But we're in a situation where there are pockets of real power occupied by left-leaning leadership. University campuses. Some parts of the media. Large cities.

This also isn't necessarily true. Democratic sympathies != left-leaning. And the actual truth is that, going on voting records alone, people in the US mainly vote based on whether they live in more or less densely populated regions. The institutions you've mentioned are all Democrat-leaning because they are predominantly located in more urban areas. Which makes sense, since the policies that Democrats generally support are all more effective at higher population densities.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#129

Post by honkdaddy »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #40

This reminds me of "Defund the Police", wherein supporters would try to convince others that the slogan did not literally mean what it says. Like AntiWork, It seems to have been started by those who genuinely wanted to abolish the police. But as time went on people joined who instead wanted to reform the police by dramatically cutting back what they were meant to respond to. But the slogan stayed, and was very mislea…

Here in Canada, many of those same voices are now begging the Ottawa police to take on a _more_ violent and confrontational approach in response to the ongoing protest. The hypocrisy is absolutely surreal to me.

Re: /r/antiwork: A tragedy of sanewashing and social gentrification

#130

Post by jokoon »

Brilliantly explained.

Too few people have the humility to look like a loser, and would rather work a bad job instead.

To add on the condescending tone of fox news, the whole hypocrisy of the backlash was quite surprising to me. To me it really felt like it was an attempt to shut down the sub by elaborate astro turfing (the mods did say there was a lot of new accounts brigading).

I felt a lot of empathy for Doreen, and how she was mocked on air. The fact that a whole community disliked her because she was a dog walker or did not look presentable was so ridiculous to me.

I think she handled it pretty well, she did not get angry, she did not care about the tone of that tv guy.

The subreddit is still there. Nothing really happened. There are still people renegotiating their salary and quitting their jobs.

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