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Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

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Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#71

Post by _xnmw »

wink wrote: post #65
_xnmw wrote: post #57

No. Cultures exist. Races exist. Unique human modes of being exist. One of the most devastating effects of the European Union was the absolute desolation and loss of beautiful cultures in Eastern Europe, such as Croatia and Romania. Entire regions became ghost towns, and major cities became standardized, soulless, faceless blocks. Here's a before/after review from someone who travelled to Dubrovnik, Croatia before it…

> One of the most devastating effects of the European Union was the absolute desolation and loss of beautiful cultures in Eastern Europe, such as Croatia and Romania. Entire regions became ghost towns The same can be said for Germany's reunification. So many people moved from the former GDR to the West where the jobs were and as it's been a few years now the population is aging and dying. That is a fact. My opinion n…

> Weird, all I personally know from 80s Yugoslavia is from people who came to Germany to work on construction sites

Selection bias. Emigrants tend to be the least happy people - there's a reason they left. Emigrants are not a good sample of the "real" native people.

> My opinion now is that I don't think that this would've been a good reason to not reunite Germany

Sure, borders change and sometimes countries get unified. But the OP was asking about unifying the entire world, not two sides of a neighbouring country with the same language. That is a painful thought, we should be fighting to protect cultures like we fight to protect endangered species.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#72

Post by pc86 »

mmarq wrote: post #68
throwaway22032 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even faster than it already is. No arguments here!

> won’t be destroyed by foreigners Should I expand on this? Do I really have to show that countries with a larger foreign born population (such as Sweden or Germany or Switzerland) are doing better than the UK? You have made an exceptional claim, that is immigration will make England poorer. You should come up with some historical examples and maybe a description of how it would happen, because it would the first tim…

You keep arguing against points the GP didn't make. There is a huge difference between "immigration will make England poorer," which is a strawman that nobody is suggesting, and "completely unrestricted immigration with zero checks and balances would be bad," which is about the closest thing to an empirical fact you can get to with regard to immigration. This is what the GP actually said, emphasis mine:

> > > I think that if my country accepted anyone from anywhere around the world, I think that...England...would turn into an absolute hellscape of poverty even faster than it already is.

Your point about 2008 is irrelevant, whether true or not. It's already taken into account. They're not saying anything about "foreigners" but about unrestricted, unregulated, open boarders style immigration.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#73

Post by mcv »

soueuls wrote: post #13
stransky wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

HN is supposed to be a place for civilized discussions. I am not allowed to go anywhere I want. There are plenty of countries refusing me entry, or access to land/property or force me to abide by strict business rule (like having a national owning > 51% of any company I might create there) this is fine. It's not my country. Plus, your "equality" is going to create other form of inequality. Any socialist countries rel…

> You can't merely replace a Thai with a Columbian. They don't believe in the same things, they don't have the same values, they don't believe in the same God or divine figure, they don't speak the same language, they don't eat the same food, they don't use their money in the same way.

But this is not just true for people from different countries. It's also true for people from the same country. Especially in melting-pot countries like the US, but also in more supposedly homogenous countries; you still have people who believe different things, have different values, live their lives in different ways, etc. Insisting on conformity has lead to tons of strife in the past. Civil wars have been fought over this stuff. It's much more productive to accept these differences. (At least in so far as they don't hurt anyone.)

Of course for that it's also important to be aware of and understand these differences. To bridge them, in some way. If you move to a different country, you should absolutely put some effort into understanding the local language and customs. You can't move to another country and expect to live like you did back home. If that's what you want, you should have stayed there.

But it would be nice if we lived in a world where these cultural obstacles were the only obstacles, and they weren't amplified by massive wealth inequality.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#74

Post by throwaway22032 »

pc86 wrote: post #72
mmarq wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> won’t be destroyed by foreigners Should I expand on this? Do I really have to show that countries with a larger foreign born population (such as Sweden or Germany or Switzerland) are doing better than the UK? You have made an exceptional claim, that is immigration will make England poorer. You should come up with some historical examples and maybe a description of how it would happen, because it would the first tim…

You keep arguing against points the GP didn't make. There is a huge difference between "immigration will make England poorer," which is a strawman that nobody is suggesting, and "completely unrestricted immigration with zero checks and balances would be bad," which is about the closest thing to an empirical fact you can get to with regard to immigration. This is what the GP actually said, emphasis mine: > > > I think…

I think in fairness probably the above poster saw my mentioning "lovely little picket-fence green England", took it to be some sort of nationalistic race-baity slogan, and didn't really read the rest of the post.

I'm generally pretty direct in my speech and I'm not really ashamed of it; I'm proud of my country for all of its' political faults and refuse to let a bunch of racist wankers ruin that.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#75

Post by voisin »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #16

From an ethical / fairness perspective, I think that the idea that someone should be prevented from visiting or settling in my country by virtue of their birth situation is utterly ridiculous, abhorrent, and awful. From a logistical perspective, I think that if my country accepted anyone from anywhere around the world, I think that the lovely little picket-fence green England I live in would turn into an absolute hel…

Limit quantities of immigrants but not originations?

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#76

Post by giantg2 »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #24
giantg2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I think it would be a good idea to have people teach/test the citizenship test in high school. The content should mostly be covered under civics classes anyways. It always amazing to me just how many people are completely clueless on government structure, mechanics, rule of law, etc.

I'm fine not having everyone take a citizenship test because the consequences are dire if you make people's citizenship dependent on the test. Statelessness is a cruel thing to put onto someone that can't seem to pass a test. At least the civics test I took was for immigration and I had multiple chances to pass - and mine was easier than the insane test folks take in the US and much more practical. I do agree that we…

"insane test folks take in the US"

What is insane about it?

"You don't need all government structure"

Sure, you don't need to know everything. But it sure helps if people understand the role of the three branches, how laws are generally structured, etc. You might be surprised by how many people can't name the three branches of government or don't understand their role. In my opinion, that will eventually lead to abuse/changes of powers such as we see with the federal executive branch usurping powers it never originally had over the past century. It's hard for a citizen to see when rule of law is bypassed if they don't know the rules/structure/purpose of the system.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#77

Post by pc86 »

rndgermandude wrote: post #50
YEwSdObPQT wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that you would be required to have ID in your own country is horrid. In the UK you are not required to have any identification on you.

Why is it horrid? I am genuinely asking. As I understand it, you still need to identify yourself in countries without such an id, like the US or UK, for a lot of reasons, like when opening bank accounts, interacting with the state, etc. But without a national id card, this can become complicated, and these countries often use a lot of defacto ids "replacements" like birth certificates, driver's licenses and so on, wh…

It's not really complicated, at least in the US. Nearly everyone has a driver's license, which is accepted as ID in all but the strictest scenarios. If you don't have a driver's license, every state offers a non-driver ID which looks nearly identical. I suppose where it might get complicated is some states require you to identify yourself to a police officer when asked, some do but only when there's articulable suspicion, and some don't require you to ID yourself unless/until you're actually arrested. Even some states that require you to ID yourself when asked, without any suspicion of a crime, allow you to just give your info (name, dob, probably social) if you don't have the physical ID on you. But I think that falls into "knowing the laws of the jurisdiction you're in" more than any complications around a national ID process.

The US at least just doesn't need a national ID for anything. Nearly everyone has a birth certificate and social security or other federal ID number. Those who don't would likely not have a national ID in any such system either. Anything achieved by a national ID can be achieved by current documentation.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#78

Post by mmarq »

pc86 wrote: post #72
mmarq wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> won’t be destroyed by foreigners Should I expand on this? Do I really have to show that countries with a larger foreign born population (such as Sweden or Germany or Switzerland) are doing better than the UK? You have made an exceptional claim, that is immigration will make England poorer. You should come up with some historical examples and maybe a description of how it would happen, because it would the first tim…

You keep arguing against points the GP didn't make. There is a huge difference between "immigration will make England poorer," which is a strawman that nobody is suggesting, and "completely unrestricted immigration with zero checks and balances would be bad," which is about the closest thing to an empirical fact you can get to with regard to immigration. This is what the GP actually said, emphasis mine: > > > I think…

The only straw argument here is that passport equality implies such a thing as:

> completely unrestricted immigration with zero checks and balance

EU citizens, whose passports are equal at least within the EU, can’t move to another EU country without the economic means to leave there. So one would expect this to be the most likely outcome of passport equality.

Said that, even if we assume that passport equality implies totally unrestricted immigration, the notion that it will result in foreigners migrating en mass to the English countryside to found horrid shantytowns and make everybody poorer is extremely bizarre, for such an event would be unique in the entire history of mankind.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#79

Post by YEwSdObPQT »

rndgermandude wrote: post #50
YEwSdObPQT wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that you would be required to have ID in your own country is horrid. In the UK you are not required to have any identification on you.

Why is it horrid? I am genuinely asking. As I understand it, you still need to identify yourself in countries without such an id, like the US or UK, for a lot of reasons, like when opening bank accounts, interacting with the state, etc. But without a national id card, this can become complicated, and these countries often use a lot of defacto ids "replacements" like birth certificates, driver's licenses and so on, wh…

> As I understand it, you still need to identify yourself in countries without such an id, like the US or UK, for a lot of reasons, like when opening bank accounts, interacting with the state, etc. But without a national id card, this can become complicated, and these countries often use a lot of defacto ids "replacements" like birth certificates, driver's licenses and so on, which increases the bureaucracy for citizens/customers and potential for fraud.

There is a big difference between having it being compulsory to carry identification and being required to show identification when my identification need to be verified.

When I am buying my lunch. I don't need to verify who I am. If I am going to the bank they need to verify who I am.

> So while I see a lot of pros about national ids, what's the "horrid" drawback of ids?

Because I shouldn't need be required to carry a piece of paper/plastic card to go outside of my house. The idea of it is bonkers if you are in the UK.

If the identification isn't compulsory and is voluntary I have no problem with them. However from what I understand many places in Europe they are compulsory.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#80

Post by mmarq »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #69
mmarq wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> won’t be destroyed by foreigners Should I expand on this? Do I really have to show that countries with a larger foreign born population (such as Sweden or Germany or Switzerland) are doing better than the UK? You have made an exceptional claim, that is immigration will make England poorer. You should come up with some historical examples and maybe a description of how it would happen, because it would the first tim…

I don't believe that immigration will make England poorer. I think that immigration is generally a good thing. I think that unrestricted immigration would make any country worse off in a number of ways, not only the economic axis but social cohesion, physical space, etc. None of those countries have unrestricted immigration. It seems like you view my opinion as being in opposition to yours, but it's not, we feel the…

The point where we disagree is that I don't think passport equality implies unrestricted immigration.

Also it seems to me that your comment implies that unrestricted immigration will result in millions of “undesirables” moving to the West. I don’t agree with that.

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