Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#21

Post by Broken_Hippo » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #8

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I decide who I want to welcome in my home. I believe Thailand, Russia, Brazil, Germany are completely free to do the same and fix their own rules. But you don't. Take the US, for example. Everyone born there is a citizen. Everyone born to an American parent is a citizen (or can be). None of the folks get a choice in where they were born, or what nationality they get. And you have all sorts of folks - people that will…

I think this is awesome but I also believe the US pays a price for that. Few systems based on solidarity, a weak federal state and the culture promotes people being responsible for themselves instead of relying on public infrastructure or authority. It doesn't have to be this way if trust between groups improves such systems could appear. Ironically the ambitions to solve racism did create even more distrust as it se…

I am from the US but do not live there - I live in Norway.

Open immigration doesn't necessarily mean open rights to social structure: After all, most places have some limits on the safety net you are entitled to now - For example: Taking certain types of social help here in Norway hurts my own immigration. You can have some controls on this: One actual answer is to make sure everyone has basic things as rights (Such as food and shelter) and work on making everywhere decent enough places to live - but for this, we need less global exploitation.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#22

Post by oneplane » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

No, because it is the population that can drive change in a country where politics has restricted them.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#23

Post by robertlagrant » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #19

soueuls wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are surrounded by people whose parents contributed to your economy, who were more or less raised with at least a decent amount of shared values. People don't just come to a new country and just abandon their past. They bring their values, ideals, beliefs, problems and solutions. As the number of foreign people coming, cosmopolitanism increase. Then you quickly reach a point where you can eat a raclette anywhe…

"But you are surrounded by people whose parents contributed to your economy, who were more or less raised with at least a decent amount of shared values." People used to say that folks with different color of skin had a different culture, and therefore interracial relationships do not work. People move across the country (in the US) and get culture shock. In other words, people don't really consider others as having…

The "actual answer" here seems just aspirational. If it basically means "you have to spend enough money until everywhere else is so nice that no one wants to move to your country" then that is more money than there is. In the meantime, how do you create a system that doesn't require that amount of money?

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#24

Post by Broken_Hippo » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #11

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I decide who I want to welcome in my home. I believe Thailand, Russia, Brazil, Germany are completely free to do the same and fix their own rules. But you don't. Take the US, for example. Everyone born there is a citizen. Everyone born to an American parent is a citizen (or can be). None of the folks get a choice in where they were born, or what nationality they get. And you have all sorts of folks - people that will…

To be honest, I think it would be a good idea to have people teach/test the citizenship test in high school. The content should mostly be covered under civics classes anyways. It always amazing to me just how many people are completely clueless on government structure, mechanics, rule of law, etc.

I'm fine not having everyone take a citizenship test because the consequences are dire if you make people's citizenship dependent on the test. Statelessness is a cruel thing to put onto someone that can't seem to pass a test. At least the civics test I took was for immigration and I had multiple chances to pass - and mine was easier than the insane test folks take in the US and much more practical.

I do agree that we should make sure everyone knows how the systems work in reality, but realistically I'd want to lean into things folks would actually use instead of memorizing dates and names: You don't need to know all the laws, just how they pertain to you. You don't need all government structure, but general and the things you'll probably deal with (local government, motor vehicle laws, etc), what to do if you find yourself disabled, poor, or needing time off for surgery. Making sure everyone knows worker and tenant rights would be a step in the right direction as well, as well as what to do about these sorts of things.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#25

Post by robjan » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

Are we talking about travel or right to work? The latter tends to be beneficial to both countries as it prevents brain drain without the country having to impose exit bans / quotas.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#26

Post by hypertele-Xii » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:14 PM UTC

yosito wrote: post #14

As a nomad, and someone who's traveled to 40 countries and speaks 3 languages, I'd personally love to live in a world where passports don't exist and people are free to travel to any country they want to. I think trying to make all passports equal is the wrong solution. Passports are issued by the authority of a country, and not all countries have equal authority on the world stage. UN issued passports might be a pos…

> I'd personally love to live in a world where passports don't exist and people are free to travel to any country they want to.

The European Union exists. It's pretty cool. Go anywhere, no password required.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#27

Post by mcv » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:16 PM UTC

throwaway22032 wrote: post #16

From an ethical / fairness perspective, I think that the idea that someone should be prevented from visiting or settling in my country by virtue of their birth situation is utterly ridiculous, abhorrent, and awful. From a logistical perspective, I think that if my country accepted anyone from anywhere around the world, I think that the lovely little picket-fence green England I live in would turn into an absolute hel…

I think borders are stupid and should disappear. But I also know that there are too many reasons it's not that easy in the real world.

In a way, passport inequality is a result of economic inequality. Rich countries have no problem opening their borders to each other. And although I have no experience with it, it sounds like it's not that hard to cross borders between some poor countries either. Rich people are welcome everywhere. But allow poor people into rich countries, and everybody is upset.

Opening more borders would be easier if there weren't any refugees, economic or otherwise. If everybody was free to settle wherever they liked, I think most people would still prefer to stay near their place of birth if they could afford to. The problem is that extreme poverty in one place and extreme wealth in another, naturally draws people to the rich place. It's always been like that. In the middle ages, people moved from the countryside to the cities (and still do). Now people also want to move from poor countries to rich countries. It's natural, but the rich countries want to protect their rich-people ghettos. So we create ever stricter and stricter borders and visa requirements.

To create a more free world, we probably first need to create a more equal world. Freedom and equality need to go hand in hand. But too many established interests prefer the world the way it is.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#28

Post by sharikous » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:18 PM UTC

I see more and more people believing in a future of big tech players being as authoritative as countries (I am not sure about that but I am hearing that a lot)

Imagine passports issued by Amazon, Google, Microsoft etc.. to their workers or to workers of smaller companies using their cloud services. The only thing missing is armies

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#29

Post by mcv » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:18 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #26

yosito wrote: post #14

As a nomad, and someone who's traveled to 40 countries and speaks 3 languages, I'd personally love to live in a world where passports don't exist and people are free to travel to any country they want to. I think trying to make all passports equal is the wrong solution. Passports are issued by the authority of a country, and not all countries have equal authority on the world stage. UN issued passports might be a pos…

> I'd personally love to live in a world where passports don't exist and people are free to travel to any country they want to. The European Union exists. It's pretty cool. Go anywhere, no password required.

I think you still need to have a passport, it just won't be checked by anyone. Unless you get arrested, probably.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#30

Post by pc86 » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 1:18 PM UTC

And how exactly would the UN do that? The countries enacting and enforcing these sanctions, to be blunt, don't really care what the UN thinks about much of anything.