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Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

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Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#11

Post by giantg2 »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #3
soueuls wrote: post #2

I think the UN is already doing way too much. I don't want to live in a world where the concept of trust is nullified in the name of equality. I decide who I want to welcome in my home. I believe Thailand, Russia, Brazil, Germany are completely free to do the same and fix their own rules.

I decide who I want to welcome in my home. I believe Thailand, Russia, Brazil, Germany are completely free to do the same and fix their own rules. But you don't. Take the US, for example. Everyone born there is a citizen. Everyone born to an American parent is a citizen (or can be). None of the folks get a choice in where they were born, or what nationality they get. And you have all sorts of folks - people that will…

To be honest, I think it would be a good idea to have people teach/test the citizenship test in high school. The content should mostly be covered under civics classes anyways. It always amazing to me just how many people are completely clueless on government structure, mechanics, rule of law, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#12

Post by giantg2 »

stransky wrote: post #10
soueuls wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are surrounded by people whose parents contributed to your economy, who were more or less raised with at least a decent amount of shared values. People don't just come to a new country and just abandon their past. They bring their values, ideals, beliefs, problems and solutions. As the number of foreign people coming, cosmopolitanism increase. Then you quickly reach a point where you can eat a raclette anywhe…

Quoted post unavailable.

The door isn't closed. People still immigrate.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#13

Post by soueuls »

stransky wrote: post #10
soueuls wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are surrounded by people whose parents contributed to your economy, who were more or less raised with at least a decent amount of shared values. People don't just come to a new country and just abandon their past. They bring their values, ideals, beliefs, problems and solutions. As the number of foreign people coming, cosmopolitanism increase. Then you quickly reach a point where you can eat a raclette anywhe…

Quoted post unavailable.

HN is supposed to be a place for civilized discussions.

I am not allowed to go anywhere I want. There are plenty of countries refusing me entry, or access to land/property or force me to abide by strict business rule (like having a national owning > 51% of any company I might create there) this is fine. It's not my country.

Plus, your "equality" is going to create other form of inequality. Any socialist countries relies on past contributions to finance most things like healthcare or unemployment income.

In my country, immigrants are allowed to get unemployment income, without contribution anything beforehand. This just creates inequality to the ones who contributed.

You seem just obsessed with equality for the sake of it. People have history, bonding among nations take time, suffering, dedication.

You can't merely replace a Thai with a Columbian. They don't believe in the same things, they don't have the same values, they don't believe in the same God or divine figure, they don't speak the same language, they don't eat the same food, they don't use their money in the same way. It must take personal effort for someone to immigrate into another country.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#14

Post by yosito »

As a nomad, and someone who's traveled to 40 countries and speaks 3 languages, I'd personally love to live in a world where passports don't exist and people are free to travel to any country they want to. I think trying to make all passports equal is the wrong solution. Passports are issued by the authority of a country, and not all countries have equal authority on the world stage. UN issued passports might be a possible solution, but I can't envision global trust in the UN's authority. If the UN started issuing passports for stateless people, I can imagine the passport would immediately be treated as a low-status passport by countries, if they even accepted it at all. I think a better solution is to abolish passports altogether, but I can't envision that either.

The truth is, the world is not an equal place. Never has been, and never will be. In terms of justice, the best we can do is to make sure that those at the bottom have all of their basic needs met, access to opportunities to increase their status, and a continually rising standard of living for everyone via innovation and sustainable development.

As an individual, the best one can do is to work hard to obtain a better passport. That's what I've done, and there are many opportunities to do so.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#15

Post by maxerickson »

throwawaynay wrote: post #7

Idealistically yes. But you should focus on financial inequality first(for example with global remote work accepted as the norm). If all of a poor third world country move to a first world country overnight this is just the same poor country on another continent. I'm 100% for immigration, but realistically if you just allow everyone to move overnight, it's just going to make a big mess unless we first focus on financ…

People mostly don't have the resources to even get to another country. A country where most of their established social network won't be able to help them.

And for example, in the US, if you don't speak English or Spanish it is going to be difficult to get unskilled work (understood that there are some places where other languages would work, I'm characterizing the overall situation).

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#16

Post by throwaway22032 »

From an ethical / fairness perspective, I think that the idea that someone should be prevented from visiting or settling in my country by virtue of their birth situation is utterly ridiculous, abhorrent, and awful.

From a logistical perspective, I think that if my country accepted anyone from anywhere around the world, I think that the lovely little picket-fence green England I live in would turn into an absolute hellscape of poverty even faster than it already is.

I think most people probably hold those two views simultaneously and try to reconcile them.

Passport control is kind of just like a larger-scale way of keeping the supermarket checkout worker out of your Michelin-starred restaurant society Facebook group. They'd just fuck it up and make it awkward for everyone. Is it fair? No.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#18

Post by stransky »

soueuls wrote: post #13
stransky wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

HN is supposed to be a place for civilized discussions. I am not allowed to go anywhere I want. There are plenty of countries refusing me entry, or access to land/property or force me to abide by strict business rule (like having a national owning > 51% of any company I might create there) this is fine. It's not my country. Plus, your "equality" is going to create other form of inequality. Any socialist countries rel…

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#19

Post by Broken_Hippo »

soueuls wrote: post #5
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I decide who I want to welcome in my home. I believe Thailand, Russia, Brazil, Germany are completely free to do the same and fix their own rules. But you don't. Take the US, for example. Everyone born there is a citizen. Everyone born to an American parent is a citizen (or can be). None of the folks get a choice in where they were born, or what nationality they get. And you have all sorts of folks - people that will…

But you are surrounded by people whose parents contributed to your economy, who were more or less raised with at least a decent amount of shared values. People don't just come to a new country and just abandon their past. They bring their values, ideals, beliefs, problems and solutions. As the number of foreign people coming, cosmopolitanism increase. Then you quickly reach a point where you can eat a raclette anywhe…

"But you are surrounded by people whose parents contributed to your economy, who were more or less raised with at least a decent amount of shared values."

People used to say that folks with different color of skin had a different culture, and therefore interracial relationships do not work. People move across the country (in the US) and get culture shock. In other words, people don't really consider others as having the same values and culture. "Contribute to the economy" is a weird phrasing: Most of my family worked to not starve and immigrants contribute to economies as well.

If you are afraid that someone from a "leser" country with a "lesser" value system is going to mess up your life, it isn't and the actual answer is for humans to make sure their global neighbors aren't crappy countries to live in. It is, after all, partly our fault (our = "developed countries") since we rely on the slave conditions in "developing" countries so that we have toys and food.

Re: Ask HN: Does the world need a “passport equality” movement?

#20

Post by mam4 »

bouncing wrote: post #9

The reason there are different passport restrictions, mostly, is wealth/income inequality. As countries become richer, their passports typically become stronger. The solution is to attack the root cause of the issue, which is that so much of the world is still so poor.

And also corruption / crime that are a corollary of poverty
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