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Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

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Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#91
post #29

Gut microbiome researcher here - not involved in this study but happy to answer questions or dig in with anyone interested!

Hi! Thanks a ton - super curious research. What determines if individuals get Morganella and Kiebdiella bacteria? Is it genetic or can it be impacted by the food we eat? What is the mechanism of how these bacterias interact with the brain through the enteric system? Thank you!

Fascinating question - also not totally known.

We know that microbes colonize the gut in a somewhat predictable way as a function of age. As a newborn your gut is largely dominated by Bifidobacteria, and this slowly transitions to a more complex community over the next several years of life. Events like early childhood antibiotics, malnutrition, other disease, etc. can alter this trajectory. Interestingly this kind of ecological succession seems to be driven by an interplay of both immune maturation (as your immune system matures it starts being more selective about who it tries to let in) and by chemical processes. The gut becomes more anaerobic as the number of bacteria increase (and transition away from the Bifido dominated state) and that has a strong selective effect on the microbes that will grow well.

For specific commensal bacteria we know some of the mechanisms of colonization - there are particular genetic programs that bacteria turn on when they sense they are in the gut to enhance their ability to be retained and not washed out. These programs include physical attachment, motility, and chemical signalling to try to dampen the local immune response.

Pathogens are extremely good at getting in to the gut despite our best attempts at keeping them out. Salmonella typhimurium is notoriously adept at colonizing the host - the infectious dose you need is maybe 10 microbes taken orally in a susceptible host (compare that to 10 billion microbes/capsule in a probiotic).

For these specific bugs I don't know that much. I am excited to read more.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#92

If you’re like me and somehow missed out that there’s an significant mesh of neurons in your guts that’s capable of independent neurotransmitter release, you should look up the enteric nervous system. Intuitively, at least, it seems to make sense of all the ‘gut’ connections to mood.

It's been described as a "cat's brain" equivalent of neurons. Largely seems attached to regulating various rhythms of the gut, but who knows what computations it could be influencing.

Considering how often my cat manages to outsmart me I'd say that is a significant amount of neurons.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the current pace of research and studies, when do you think we could expect to see something come to 'market' that could be used - first as a diagnosis and then as a treatment/medication/technique. As someone with IBS - right now I feel like there is no clear 'problem' defined for it. You are just categorized by the doctor (Rome 3 or whatever) and people go through various tests, medications, non-fda approved stuf…

Also have an IBS diagnosis. Had a great doctor that helped me get started, after many that did a shoddy job, and this has been my experience as well. Very much a 'seems like IBS, try low FODMAP, see what works and doesn't via experience,' which was pretty amazing/alarming how little is understood about our guts. I'd love to know when the science is going to start catching up. Especially since I think it'll be interes…

> Very much a 'seems like IBS, try low FODMAP, see what works and doesn't via experience,' which was pretty amazing/alarming how little is understood about our guts.

Yes exactly this.

> Especially since I think it'll be interesting to find out if something has been added to our diets that's causing an increase in intolerance over the last decade+.

One thing I read is that western diets severely lack in fiber which usually leads to loss of microbiome diversity [1]. But studies like this are still early stages, we need targeted results based on all this to really have any effect.

[1] https://nautil.us/how-the-western-diet-has-derailed-our-evol...

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#96

Tangential: Is there any evidence that pro biotic foods or supplements can increase gut health? Given the evident importance of gut health, I wonder whether it's worth using something like this, to grab a random example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Restored-Bio-Cultures/dp/B082SZXBF2...

Another anecdata point: I used be lethargic, couldn't get myself to do anything but be on the sofa. I would get horrible migraine headaches if drinking alcohol or even alcohol free beer or eat certain foods. I self-diagnosed histamine intolerance through trial and error. I tried multiple pro-biotic combinations. An easy one I tried in the beginning was simply some Danone Actimel the family had in the fridge anyway. I…

Thanks for sharing this, most of your experience sounds similar to those of a friend of mine (Yokult gives them migraines) although they haven't yet tried Bacillus subtillis.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#97

I've seen these studies time and time again. I do wonder what are the practical steps one takes to "repair" or "renew" their gut? I'm not a fan of drugs being the cure. In fact, I don't think they are the first solution people should hope for or supplement with unless it's not practical to get them in a natural way. I feel like we see more and more gut related issues due to depression & depression's little cousin anx…

> what are the practical steps one takes to "repair" or "renew" their gut?

Look up nutritionfacts.org and read/view it with a generous pinch of salt. A few years ago it took me half a year to switch to a mostly WFPB diet advertised there and I had no issues whatsoever. My gut is now more resilient, I remember having problems with bloating and/or diarrhea if I ate just a bit more fiber some days.

> why aren't we focusing on making healthier decisions for our diet, exercise, and mental well being?

The answers are there, but cognitive dissonance prevents us from recognizing or accepting them.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#98

Since diet can affect the microbiome of the gut and I can't imagine how gut bacteria affect moods (although I'm open to the idea I suppose) I'd wager it is actually diet and nutritional input that affects mood as well as the gut bacteria. Makes more sense to me that your mood can be affected by your diet, and what we are measuring is the altered microbiome of the gut because of the diet.

If you believe that nutritional input has an effect on mood, then, by proxy, you also believe that the microbiome has an effect. We have outsourced a lot of food preprocessing to gut microbes, and if they are wiped out, then you‘ll suffer from malnutrition.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#99
Just another data point, but my journey through digestive issues and recovery was kicked off by the worst depression and burnout I ever experienced, which started in 2019 and lasted 3 years.

My best guess for what happened is that work stress, excessive celebration and coping with the cognitive dissonance of the pre-COVID era and subsequent pandemic, combined with overtraining and the misuse of protein shakes in place of food, left me in a chronically dehydrated state. The body tries to collect moisture from the gut, which opens an opportunity for bacteria to get into the body cavity and blood, which is colloquially called leaky gut. This sets off food sensitivities and eventually an autoimmune condition/response to lectins, gluten, etc, which have proteins similar to linings in the body, joints and thyroid. Then a cascade happens where everything goes out of whack quickly. In my case, I went from being in the best shape of my life, the strongest I had ever been in the gym, to barely able to get out of bed in the morning. In other people, it might present as chronic fatigue, arthritis, etc.

I didn't really believe any of this in 2018, and my meal plan then consisted entirely of everything that I can't eat today. So I consider what people say politely, but for the most part, they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. This experience has made stuff like GMO foods sound absolutely insane to me. Like, why would we ever taint our food supply to make food 5 cents cheaper or "feed the world" when we've been operating under artificial scarcity since the end of the second world war? It's all a crock.

Every time you eat inflammatory food, the risk is similar to smoking a cigarette. Probably nothing will happen, but if it sets off your immune system, you may wake up one morning chronically depressed and/or unable to eat something that you rely upon. It got me after I turned 40, YMMV.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#100
post #29

Gut microbiome researcher here - not involved in this study but happy to answer questions or dig in with anyone interested!

What is the "gut?" Colon, small intestines, stomach, all of the above? If gut microbiome affects mood, what happens if someone has a total colectomy?
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