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Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

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Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you have heard of the low FODMAP diet? Its now the standard treatment for IBS. The theory is certain bacteria ferment FODMAPS into gas and water which leads to the symptoms. They don't know which bacteria yet but going low fodmap is now a well researched and accepted treatment. Everyone is different but personally, I'm able to tolerate everything except Fructans (one of several types of FODMAPS). So no ga…

I was skeptical of this when I first heard of it several years ago. It sounded just like every other popular diet does: “Just (don’t) eat this certain food, and you will feel amazing!” But I have several family members on it right now, and they all report feeling WAY better. And this is after years of dealing with IBS type problems too.

Another successful patient of the low FODMAP diet here. As soon as I stray from the restrictions I will suffer the next day. IBS can be crippling.

Honestly the scientist(s) who developed the low FODMAP diet needs to be awarded a Nobel prize.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an easy to make recipe?

I use a variant of Emmymade's variant of Maangchi's recipe. It works really well. Rinsed pickle jars work great, a head of Napa cabbage usually fills about 2+1/2 ~ 3 jars. If you're not into high spicy, dial back the red pepper by about half, for your first try. If you don't like funky, skip the fish sauce or any seafood component, I always do this so that the flavor won't clash with some dishes, you can always add f…

it would never have occured to me not to bring kimchi to work. Durian? Stinky Tofu? ok but Kimchee? I'll bet most company cafeterias have blue cheese around

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#74
post #46
post #29

Gut microbiome researcher here - not involved in this study but happy to answer questions or dig in with anyone interested!

Weird question perhaps, some research suggests that bacteria source nutrients from the cell lining in the gut if there is an absence of sufficient nutrients from the food coming into the digestive system. (example: https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(16)31464-7 ) That made me wonder what the triggers might be, since the studies see the corroding effect appear in diets deficient in polyphenols/insoluble fibr…

Fascinating question - and not one whose answer is known.

Fiber is good for microbes merely by the virtue that humans lack the glycan-degrading enzymes that are necessary to break it down, so it reaches the colon intact where the microbes can eat it. Humans can digest starch (though it can be physically and chemically modified to be harder to digest) but not the hundreds of other types of fibers that are found in a traditional diet.

I think there is good research that shows that higher fiber diets are associated with lower risk of developing a range of metabolic and immune pathologies, but the particular mechanistic linkages are so subtle that it will require absolutely massive studies to identify them. In general, we know that humans used to eat a much higher fiber diet (e.g. the Hadza people eat 70-150 grams of fiber a day), and we believe that produces a much healthier microbial composition.

The paper you cited is really interesting! I haven't read it - but the overall idea that the mucus lining of the gut can be degraded by microbes who are sourcing carbon, energy, and nitrogen from it is well established.

I think there is consensus that some amount of gut barrier integrity is due to microbial signals. This occurs in two ways - 1) our epithelial cells sense microbial products (proteins, carbohydrates, etc.) and respond by tightening the junctions between them. The overall idea being that you want to keep the bacteria in the colon, but you must balance some level of nutrient flow. 2) The goblet cells which produce mucus in the gut, respond to microbial signals to increase or decrease their mucus production.

There is a lot of research going on trying to understand how certain diets cause defective mucus production and in turn how that can allow microbes to get to close to the epithelial lining (usually the mucus is ~100 microns thick) which results in inflammation.

Recent evidence of another function of microbial activity in the gut of hibernating animals. In short, it appears that they help the host supply enough nitrogen for maintaining muscle mass during hibernation: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abh2950

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#75
post #61

I think the causal nature of this relationship is way overestimated.

I’m curious, why do you think that?

Playing devil's advocate, do we have any reason to believe that people who are genetically more succeptible to depression aren't also more likely to have this sort of gut via genetics? That would result in this correlation.

Perhaps improving your gut biome wouldn't actually help with depression?

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#76

Tangential: Is there any evidence that pro biotic foods or supplements can increase gut health? Given the evident importance of gut health, I wonder whether it's worth using something like this, to grab a random example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Restored-Bio-Cultures/dp/B082SZXBF2...

Anecdata: Tried various probiotics, no help. Pre-biotics however, have been huge. Search for "resistant starch".

The best treatment for my own ADHD, depression and anxiety is living a healthy lifestyle, across the board, full stop.

It means regular exercise, 6 hours of cardio a week, eating healthy, meditating, spending time in the sun, etc. etc. (And anti-depressants/therapy, which play an important role too.)

Of course, it's too much to tell someone struggling to do all those things, but if you can work towards that, I strongly recommend it. I've had to declare war on my depression and ADHD because I can't afford to have it in my life anymore.

At some point perhaps the science will catch up and explain precisely how these things help, but until then, I feel like you have to take the ancient approach of observing people who have things figured out and emulating them. (And I say this as someone who is very much pro-science.)

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#77

Tangential: Is there any evidence that pro biotic foods or supplements can increase gut health? Given the evident importance of gut health, I wonder whether it's worth using something like this, to grab a random example: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Restored-Bio-Cultures/dp/B082SZXBF2...

I've always been prescribed them by doctors after taking antibiotics... As you guessed it the guy microbes are killed off by the medication.

Well that's the theory anyway...

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#78

Since diet can affect the microbiome of the gut and I can't imagine how gut bacteria affect moods (although I'm open to the idea I suppose) I'd wager it is actually diet and nutritional input that affects mood as well as the gut bacteria. Makes more sense to me that your mood can be affected by your diet, and what we are measuring is the altered microbiome of the gut because of the diet.

There has been scientific recognition of the gut affecting brain function for well over 100 years. This might help it make more sense: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772764/

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you have heard of the low FODMAP diet? Its now the standard treatment for IBS. The theory is certain bacteria ferment FODMAPS into gas and water which leads to the symptoms. They don't know which bacteria yet but going low fodmap is now a well researched and accepted treatment. Everyone is different but personally, I'm able to tolerate everything except Fructans (one of several types of FODMAPS). So no ga…

I was skeptical of this when I first heard of it several years ago. It sounded just like every other popular diet does: “Just (don’t) eat this certain food, and you will feel amazing!” But I have several family members on it right now, and they all report feeling WAY better. And this is after years of dealing with IBS type problems too.

Low FODMAP works, but it’s precisely because it’s unlike all other “diets”. It’s a systematic removal of basically all short-chain sugars. The problem with it, as someone who was instructed to follow it, is that it’s extremely unintuitive to know what foods are low or high FODMAP without the list. Because of this, it’s really easy to make mistakes unless you consult the list prior to eating.

So it definitely gives positive results, but it’s also very difficult to follow.

Re: Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study

#80
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another anecdata point: I used be lethargic, couldn't get myself to do anything but be on the sofa. I would get horrible migraine headaches if drinking alcohol or even alcohol free beer or eat certain foods. I self-diagnosed histamine intolerance through trial and error. I tried multiple pro-biotic combinations. An easy one I tried in the beginning was simply some Danone Actimel the family had in the fridge anyway. I…

Really interesting indeed! I just found this paper on B. subtilis from November: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34630666/ Reducing intestinal permeability is a highly desirable effect.

It's the same bacteria found in Natto
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