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Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

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Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#201

Post by simscitizen »

One way of getting consumer Gmail to work with a custom domain almost exactly like the way legacy Gsuite worked is to do something like this:

1. Tell your registrar to forward e-mails from john@doe.com to john.doe@gmail.com. Many registrars offer this service for free.

2. Set up john@doe.com as an alternate sender in Gmail (Settings > Accounts and Import > Send mail as).

For (2), you can use smtp.gmail.com to send mail on behalf of your domain. Example setup instructions: https://support.google.com/domains/answer/9437157?hl=en. You might also want to make sure "treat as an alias" is unchecked, so `john@doe.com` shows up as the From address (as opposed to `john.doe@gmail.com on behalf of john@doe.com`). You probably also want to edit your spf record for your domain to allow Google's mail servers to send mail on behalf of your domain, e.g. "v=spf1 include:_spf.google.com -all".

So this mostly all works...but the problem is that there doesn't seem to be any way of setting up the proper DKIM and DMARC records for your domain when using smtp.gmail.com. So I'm wary of deliverability issues with this setup. I already found one other user complaining about this: https://serverfault.com/questions/1092392/spf-dkim-dmarc-for....

Does anyone have any ideas here? Are there any reputable SMTP only hosts that cater to individual users? You could use Amazon SES but it seems like it might be a bad choice for individuals, as those SES hosts are generally used for bulk e-mail and you might get stuck sending mail on an IP with a bad reputation.

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#202

Post by snielson »

I recently had to deal with this. I created a free Outlook account. I transferred the domain from Gsuite to cloudflare and signed up for the email beta (all email is forwarded to the Outlook account).

I moved the email using Outlook on Windows (I have a separate MS365 plan for my family so I have access to Outlook). I just connected both accounts to Outlook and then dragged and dropped the emails from the Gsuite account to the Outlook account. Honestly, this was the easiest part of the whole process of leaving Gsuite.

This setup doesn't allow me to send email from the domain, but it does allow me to receive email. It's for a small HOA so I'm fine with this arrangement. If I wanted to send email, then I'd probably sign up for o Microsoft plan that allows me to do that. These are described in other comments.

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#203

Post by dmqctx »

snielson wrote: post #202

I recently had to deal with this. I created a free Outlook account. I transferred the domain from Gsuite to cloudflare and signed up for the email beta (all email is forwarded to the Outlook account). I moved the email using Outlook on Windows (I have a separate MS365 plan for my family so I have access to Outlook). I just connected both accounts to Outlook and then dragged and dropped the emails from the Gsuite acco…

Similar experience. I moved a domain of mine to O365 from GSuite (Google Workspace) about 2 years ago. I am currently in the process of migrating BACK to Google Workspace.

Generally unhappy with O365 email over the last 2 years. Few of my complaints are: Subpar experience on Outlook for Android. (Gmail is so darn good). Just ready for my Gmail experience again. Overall site management using Microsoft's web dashboard for domain, permissions, spam, 2FA, is %ו@#$ NOT GOOD! I have read so many outdated, no-longer-valid support docs that I'm simply done. "Cloud" products like this have a hell of a time keeping their docs up to date and relevant. Google isn't immune here. But for whatever reason I have far less problems with several other domains I manage that are pure Google Workspace, er.... GSuite....er Gotigle Apps. Y'all get my drift.

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#204

Post by FredFS456 »

kingcharles wrote: post #156
troydavis wrote: post #3

This question comes up a couple times every month. FastMail always comes up as a recommendation, so if you search comments for FastMail, you’ll find every past thread (and relatively few false positives): https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastYear&page=0&prefix=tru... Example from a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30128198

I really like Fastmail's Android app too. It's probably only a wrapper around a browser, but it works so nice.

My gripe is that it doesn't work offline, so you can't expect to sync emails once and read them later.

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#205

Post by patja »

indigodaddy wrote: post #192
lewisl9029 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternative to Microsoft 365 if you don't need anything other than email hosting is their Exchange Online plan, which is $4/month: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/exchange/excha... This is what I ended up switching to and it's been working fine so far. I learned from this debacle that tight-coupling email to any other service is a liability, so email-only is actually a feature for me. No GoDaddy requ…

I thought Outlook.com email was free ? Or is that something completely different or a different class tier that isn’t included in these discussions for whatever reason?

I think this discussion is just about email using your own domain.

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#206

Post by 15characterslon »

brewmarche wrote: post #101
15characterslon wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be aware that Mailbox.org allows any user to send emails as ("from") any other user via SMTP and these emails will look legit since they pass SPF and DKIM checks. Many consider this a security issue. There was a quite lengthy discussion about this in their forum but they deleted it since. They refused to fix it. Archive.org still has it. Content is in German (sorry): https://web.archive.org/web/20210123192856/https:/…

Oh wow, do you perhaps have more details on the current situation? The CEO’s response is from 4 years ago. I also don’t fully understand the reasoning. Having an open SMTP server that doesn’t restrict senders is one thing, but attaching DKIM without further checks is another.

AFAIK they still refuse to acknowledge the problem. But since they deleted the forum thread, how would I know.

What they said in the forum doesn't make much sense. Yes, anyone in the wold can send emails with any address as "from". The big difference is that those emails won't pass SPF and DMARC checks.

If I wanted to use them, I would need to configure SPF and DMARC for my domain so that their mail servers pass those checks. At this point I would expect their mail servers only to allow sending "from" my domain when my account is used.

Note that just about any major mail provider does this check (e.g. Google). It is industry standard. It is crazy that they even refuse to acknowledge this. I'm working in this field and this is basic knowledge. I just don't get how they can do this professionally and not understand what the problem is. The only explanation I have is that for some reason it would be hard for them to fix and so they try to ignore it / make it disappear by deleting the forum thread.

Also they use the same DMARC key for all customers, which is weird. Usually each customer gets it's own DMARC key.

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#207

Post by 15characterslon »

upofadown wrote: post #118
15characterslon wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be aware that Mailbox.org allows any user to send emails as ("from") any other user via SMTP and these emails will look legit since they pass SPF and DKIM checks. Many consider this a security issue. There was a quite lengthy discussion about this in their forum but they deleted it since. They refused to fix it. Archive.org still has it. Content is in German (sorry): https://web.archive.org/web/20210123192856/https:/…

Anyone willing to spin up a mail server can do this. DKIM and SPF are only intended to establish the identity of the server. I don't know that there is any obligation on the part of someone running a mail server to police the "From:" address on an email in some specific way. Traditionally the "From:" address was considered informational. It generally represents the address that the sender considers "their" email addr…

As others said, DKIM always includes "from". And almost none of the emails I get are S/MIME or PGP signed.

Like you said: SPF and DMARC only authenticate the server. It's up to the server to authenticate the user.

Scenario: imagine your bank uses Mailbox.org to send emails. How would you verify that an email is legit? Any Mailbox user can send emails through Mailbox with your bank as "from" and all of these emails pass SPF and DKIM checks. Your mail server has no way to distinct a legit email from a fake one. This is why it's important that the server does this check (check that sender account and "from" match / are a valid combination).

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#208

Post by 15characterslon »

mkdirp wrote: post #92
15characterslon wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be aware that Mailbox.org allows any user to send emails as ("from") any other user via SMTP and these emails will look legit since they pass SPF and DKIM checks. Many consider this a security issue. There was a quite lengthy discussion about this in their forum but they deleted it since. They refused to fix it. Archive.org still has it. Content is in German (sorry): https://web.archive.org/web/20210123192856/https:/…

I did not know this, I moved to mailbox.org in December. Surely they'll only allow that if they pass the auth and the domain belongs to your account?

No, they don't do that check, that is the problem.

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#209

Post by modeless »

Glench wrote: post #139
modeless wrote: post #54

You can still use the Gmail UI with a custom domain for free. All you need is a mail server. Once it's set up, configure a free Gmail account to fetch your email with IMAP and send from your domain with SMTP. Now you own your email but still get the Gmail UI as long as you want to use it, for free, with the option to use any other client you want as well.

Oh this is an interesting tip. Any guides? I'd imagine this could have deliverability problems being from a self-hosted mail server but maybe that's just been ingrained in me by email providers :)

I wouldn't self host a mail server, I'd go with a hosted option. Often you get one free with your domain registration anyway.

Re: Ask HN: Best hosted alternative to Google Workspace for email?

#210

Post by buro9 »

42droids wrote: post #138
buro9 wrote: post #39

Fastmail I've just moved, and it's great. Import is fantastic (I migrated 14GB of email) and I've used Dmarcian to monitor and confirm everything is perfect on the SPF, DKIM front. Spam initially got through, but once trained it's been flawless I've personally abandoned labels for folders as I used barely 10 labels in Gmail and seldom added more than one, but they do support labels if you want that. It's great for wi…

I would love to hear more about your Synology NAS setup if you don’t mind.

It's a slightly older Synology 1817+, 8 bay, all filled with smaller older drives... 24TB RAID6. It's powered by a UPS and I set it to put the disks to sleep to reduce power consumption.

That's the basics... Beyond that, everything is disabled that was shipped with it except Windows and Apple file sharing locally.

Then I've installed the SynoCommunity version of SyncThing.

I have multiple users in the house and each person has a folder on the NAS which is their home network share and only accessible to them (and me as server admin)... things like Time Machine will have this as their backup drive and they can also dump larger files there. Within each person's network share is a directory that is mapped to SyncThing. On each of their laptops their folder is also on a local SyncThing. This means there's a shared folder on their laptop and network share which SyncThing will keep in Sync when off of the LAN, and when on the LAN they can use any computer to access the folder via network. But mostly, locally on their laptop they just work on local files and don't have to think about how it all keeps in sync.

Finally I make a cold backup once a month to an 18TB HDD USB drive which I store outside of the house except for this once per month task. This is backup via rsync.

That's it. Fairly simple. I only use a NAS for file storage and SyncThing, nothing else.

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