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Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

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Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#91

Post by zozbot234 »

medvezhenok wrote: post #89
zozbot234 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a wash. If you "give the money to everyone equally", you'll just be clawing it right back by raising taxes on higher-income folks. Theory suggests that you'll want to phase out the aid quite aggressively as income increases (though not by anything near 100%) because this is where the tightest constraints on spending are no longer binding, so the potential benefit is not that worthwhile.

The result is the same but the details matter. One is having to prove you are under threshold (documentation, paperwork etc) - the other, everyone gets it, so much less overhead for the poor (the overhead is on the side of the people who can afford it - the VAT tax or whatever is on the other side) It’s about who has to deal with the paperwork

This is a tax credit, so there ought to be very little paperwork involved other than filing for your taxes - I agree that this kind of arrangement makes sense. It's just that describing it as a subsidy for lower incomes is inherently fairer and more accurate than trying to make it into something "universal".

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#92

Post by wolverine876 »

neilwilson wrote: post #71
wolverine876 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if you are being sarcastic, but to respond literally, there is almost no inflation impact from this amount of money. Are we going to ask that for every expense? I imagine some people will - a great way to push small government and against any investment in our country. > almost unknowable We know quite a lot about economics, especially inflation and the money supply. > many children plunged into deprivation Man…

"We know quite a lot about economics, especially inflation and the money supply." That isn't the case. There's an awful lot of beliefs and curve fitting to them. Hence why QE didn't cause the 2% inflation they believed it would.

> That isn't the case.

It is absolutely the case; we just don't know everything. Using modern economics, we have managed inflation and other economic phenomena highly effectively. High inflation (well beyond what is happening now - look at history and at places that ignore economics), depressions, bank runs, etc. are a thing of the past. Look at economic history before the post-war era; look at places that ignore economics and embrace ideology or political priorities instead; there is no comparison.

It's trendy to attack them for their imperfections, but to suggest that economics is powerless is not only ignorant, it's yet another rejection of our human agency, of the power of knowledge, of our ability to determine our destiny, and another baby-and-bathwater attack on our institutions.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#93

Post by js2 »

refurb wrote: post #76
js2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s even worse than that: > Publicly, his biggest gripes are about the cost of the bill. But privately, Manchin has told his colleagues that he essentially doesn’t trust low-income people to spend government money wisely. > In recent months, Manchin has told several of his fellow Democrats that he thought parents would waste monthly child tax credit payments on drugs instead of providing for their children, accordin…

According to “two sources familiar with js2’s” comments, he feels like babies would benefit from regular doses of cocaine. See how easy it is to make things up about your enemies? Not shocked the HuffPost publishes it though.

Wall Street Journal reports the same thing and it’s entirely consistent with what he says publicly.

> The West Virginia Democrat has raised concerns that the no-strings attached benefit fuels opioid use, according to people familiar with his views. Some other Democrats and outside advocates have argued that the payments help prevent opioid use in hopes of changing his mind on work requirements. West Virginia has the highest rate of opioid-related overdoses in the country, according to government data.

> “Don’t you think, if we’re going to help the children, that the people should make some effort?” he said on CNN earlier this month.

https://archive.is/2021.09.28-163016/https://www.wsj.com/art...

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#94

Post by h0l0cube »

xyzzyz wrote: post #45
davmar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the capitalist mindset you described were accurate, then we would have the kind of society you described because we’ve had a very capitalist economy from the start. But that’s not what we see, so unfortunately what you assert cannot be true. However, you’re right that we live in capitalism. And it creates child poverty.

> However, you’re right that we live in capitalism. And it creates child poverty You don’t have to create child poverty, as child poverty is the natural state of nature.

The 'natural state of nature' is pre-civilisation, where the definition of poverty doesn't really make sense. Everything since the dawn of the civilisation is our own artifice, including the economic systems that we have become subservient to.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#95

Post by h0l0cube »

davmar wrote: post #35
h0l0cube wrote: post #21

To phrase child welfare in terms of a capitalist mindset: if you care about expanding your business and keeping labor costs down, you care about the size and quality of the domestic labor pool, and thus you care about the access to education, the stable living arrangements, and mental welfare of your fellow country people and their families, and thus you support welfare to your poorest country people. To do otherwise…

If the capitalist mindset you described were accurate, then we would have the kind of society you described because we’ve had a very capitalist economy from the start. But that’s not what we see, so unfortunately what you assert cannot be true. However, you’re right that we live in capitalism. And it creates child poverty.

I'm couching a problem in a capitalist frame, I made no assertion that we live in a perfectly capitalist economy. The irony is that China understands the economic value of quality of life better than the US, with the latter making a lot of fuss about the primacy of economy in decision making.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#96

Post by seanmcdirmid »

h0l0cube wrote: post #95
davmar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the capitalist mindset you described were accurate, then we would have the kind of society you described because we’ve had a very capitalist economy from the start. But that’s not what we see, so unfortunately what you assert cannot be true. However, you’re right that we live in capitalism. And it creates child poverty.

I'm couching a problem in a capitalist frame, I made no assertion that we live in a perfectly capitalist economy. The irony is that China understands the economic value of quality of life better than the US, with the latter making a lot of fuss about the primacy of economy in decision making.

> China understands the economic value of quality of life better than the US

I don’t get what you mean, quality of life can be really low in China (eg no indoor heat in southern China in the winter mean the girls selling snacks at the train station are wearing jackets and gloves while still freezing), but people put up with it.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#97

Post by h0l0cube »

gruez wrote: post #41
h0l0cube wrote: post #21

To phrase child welfare in terms of a capitalist mindset: if you care about expanding your business and keeping labor costs down, you care about the size and quality of the domestic labor pool, and thus you care about the access to education, the stable living arrangements, and mental welfare of your fellow country people and their families, and thus you support welfare to your poorest country people. To do otherwise…

I don't doubt that redistributing income to "poorest country people" helps in "expanding your business and keeping labor costs down" in some amount, but is it a net positive? ie. if the government levies a 10% tax to give to the poor, can you expect your revenue to increase by 10% to offset that?

In an advanced economy you need skilled workers. Skilled work needs a healthy population, enabled and motivated to learn the skills necessary. The US can try to compete on low-skilled manufacturing jobs, but the high dollar gets in the way of that.

Whether there's a net increase in GDP or government revenue, I'm not qualified to even guess, but if I'm running a business and I can benefit from human resources on-site, or need them to have deep cultural knowledge to fulfil my business needs, a local talent pool increases competition, reduces my expenses, and ensures timely and potentially revenue-generating improvements to my enterprise.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#98

Post by refurb »

toofy wrote: post #87
refurb wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $700B in bank bailouts were paid back and the government profited.

Sure, and most of the covid relief money the poors spent went back into the economy.

Right, but OP’s analogy was false.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#99

Post by refurb »

js2 wrote: post #93
refurb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to “two sources familiar with js2’s” comments, he feels like babies would benefit from regular doses of cocaine. See how easy it is to make things up about your enemies? Not shocked the HuffPost publishes it though.

Wall Street Journal reports the same thing and it’s entirely consistent with what he says publicly. > The West Virginia Democrat has raised concerns that the no-strings attached benefit fuels opioid use, according to people familiar with his views. Some other Democrats and outside advocates have argued that the payments help prevent opioid use in hopes of changing his mind on work requirements. West Virginia has the…

Slightly different comment, no?

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#100

Post by h0l0cube »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #96
h0l0cube wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm couching a problem in a capitalist frame, I made no assertion that we live in a perfectly capitalist economy. The irony is that China understands the economic value of quality of life better than the US, with the latter making a lot of fuss about the primacy of economy in decision making.

> China understands the economic value of quality of life better than the US I don’t get what you mean, quality of life can be really low in China (eg no indoor heat in southern China in the winter mean the girls selling snacks at the train station are wearing jackets and gloves while still freezing), but people put up with it.

I might be naive here, but to my understanding the vast majority have access to housing and quality education in comparison to the US?
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