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Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

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Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#61
post #56
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are straw-man'ing a bit. Of course giving people money results in them having more money. News at 11. But it's reasonable to question whether that's a good solution, a band-aid, or perhaps a short-term hack with future blowback, etc. Direct cash transfers are not exactly some foolproof, no-brainer solution to poverty. We've made a real mess in some third world countries with the cash spigot.

> We've made a real mess in some third world countries with the cash spigot. Has there been a comparable scenario of direct cash transfers to poor people?

GiveDirectly has studied this, and it's absolutely not making a "mess". What makes a mess is foreign aid directed at corrupt, large-scale, government- or NGO-driven "development" schemes. Giving cash just leaves the choice as to how to use the money to those who are best equipped to make it.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#62
post #30

Sorry kids, Joe Manchin is concerned about entitlements.

He’s even worse than that: > Publicly, his biggest gripes are about the cost of the bill. But privately, Manchin has told his colleagues that he essentially doesn’t trust low-income people to spend government money wisely. > In recent months, Manchin has told several of his fellow Democrats that he thought parents would waste monthly child tax credit payments on drugs instead of providing for their children, accordin…

So he's assuming all poor people with children are drug users? That's not very nice.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#63
post #27

The fact that this article even needed to be written says a lot about the state of politics in America. I don't think I will ever wrap my head around the fact that there are politicians who seem to sincerely believe that the best way to decrease poverty is to give tax cuts to the rich and huge corporations, instead of actions like what's described in the article.

Economics theory as taught in U.S. universities literally says that tax cuts to the rich are overall beneficial, that welfare is bad and unemployment is bad, it actually states that equality is opposite of economic efficiency.

Capitalism is a religion, they believe because they grew up told to believe it. We have found out that the theory is almost entirely made up and rarely reflects reality.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#64
post #33
post #27

The fact that this article even needed to be written says a lot about the state of politics in America. I don't think I will ever wrap my head around the fact that there are politicians who seem to sincerely believe that the best way to decrease poverty is to give tax cuts to the rich and huge corporations, instead of actions like what's described in the article.

I think you are straw-man'ing a bit. Of course giving people money results in them having more money. News at 11. But it's reasonable to question whether that's a good solution, a band-aid, or perhaps a short-term hack with future blowback, etc. Direct cash transfers are not exactly some foolproof, no-brainer solution to poverty. We've made a real mess in some third world countries with the cash spigot.

The real issue is that the ledger game is a dynamic system. Just because the currency issuer credits certain persons’ accounts in one round doesn’t mean that those accounts won’t sooner or later be depleted in future rounds. The obvious example is how a UBI will assuredly drive up rents as landlords move to capture the additional capacity to pay. Frankly, the day that UBI passes Congress will be the day the rentier class realizes this.

To use Taleb’s terminology, the rentier class have made themselves antifragile. Look how they’ve benefited from political chaos be it financial crises or pandemics.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#65
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you'd be cool with the US sitting out ww2 if japan didn't bomb pearl harbor?

I think you are ignoring his first test. "Are they committing genocide?"

Well wasn't clear whether there's a logical AND or OR between the two. In case it's OR, would you say that interventions in china[1], iraq[2], Somalia[3], Kosovo[4], Cambodia[5] would be justified?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_the_Isl...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaaq_genocide

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#66
post #38
post #27

The fact that this article even needed to be written says a lot about the state of politics in America. I don't think I will ever wrap my head around the fact that there are politicians who seem to sincerely believe that the best way to decrease poverty is to give tax cuts to the rich and huge corporations, instead of actions like what's described in the article.

You're over simplifying but yes, many people believe strong and profitable companies and entrepreneurs create a wealthier society that creates benefits for just about everyone. Compare that to communism which does spread wealth more fairly but ends up running the economy into the ground. In the end people move from the "fair" communist countries to the "unfair" capitalist ones.

Talk about over simplifying. We could move a very long ways to the left in economic policy and still be nowhere even remotely approaching communism.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#67
post #64
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are straw-man'ing a bit. Of course giving people money results in them having more money. News at 11. But it's reasonable to question whether that's a good solution, a band-aid, or perhaps a short-term hack with future blowback, etc. Direct cash transfers are not exactly some foolproof, no-brainer solution to poverty. We've made a real mess in some third world countries with the cash spigot.

The real issue is that the ledger game is a dynamic system. Just because the currency issuer credits certain persons’ accounts in one round doesn’t mean that those accounts won’t sooner or later be depleted in future rounds. The obvious example is how a UBI will assuredly drive up rents as landlords move to capture the additional capacity to pay. Frankly, the day that UBI passes Congress will be the day the rentier c…

Rents are set at the margin. If UBI recipients can move to lower-rent/lower-cost areas while keeping their UBI, there's no reason for rents to rise.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#68
This article looked fishy to me, so I looked into the papers it cited in the food insufficiency section. Turns out that, as always, journalists cannot be trusted to accurately summarize a paper, nor can one expect readers to bother checking it.

1) 25% reduction is a relative number.

> There was a 3.7–percentage point reduction (95% CI, –0.055 to –0.019 percentage points; P For ~3 percent to be a 25% relative reduction, the starting value is about 12% households with food insufficiency.

2) What are the patterns of insufficiency rates historically?

> Households with children were most affected—food insufficiency in households with children peaked at 18% in December 2020 and remained at 14% through June 2021, compared with approximately 3% among all households during 2019.

I'd guess the pandemic (esp. lockdowns) did the most harm here. Note that the payments started in July 2021 (per the paper), so the fluctuations in rates of insufficiency in the period before are higher than the estimated CTC-caused reduction.

3) Disparities are because of racism?

> Structural racism has shaped disparities in food insufficiency, with children in Black non-Hispanic (19.2%) and Hispanic (22.0%) households experiencing food insufficiency at almost triple the rate of children in White non-Hispanic households (7.0%) as of June 2021.

Asians? What Asians? We're talking about structural racism here! They don't count because they usually screw up the narrative.

4) What is child food insufficiency?

> The outcome was household food insufficiency, based on the survey item “Getting enough food can also be a problem for some people. In the last 7 days, which of these statements best describes the food eaten in your household?” We coded our outcome as 1 if respondents reported sometimes or often “not [having] enough food to eat” in the last 7 days, and 0 otherwise (“enough of the kinds of food [I/we] wanted to eat,” and “enough, but not always the kinds of food [I/we] wanted to eat”). This coding is the same as others using the Household Pulse Survey data in recent studies during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Thankfully, it's more focused than the catch-all of "food insecurity."

Hypothesis: News and fear over the next pandemic wave causes people to stock up. This causes temporary shortages. Then, when asked if they had been unable to buy what they need, people say "yes."

*Important*: this pertains to the food insufficiency paper --- I didn't look into the child poverty reduction paper.

Regarding the child poverty reduction, I also would be interested in comparisons of child poverty rates and fluctuations re. the CTC. My cynical self views it like this: 1. There is a distribution of income. 2. One threshold in that distribution is called the poverty line. 3. Give people money, and it shifts the mean of the distribution. The integral between the threshold and (threshold - stimulus) on the curve is the people 'lifted out of poverty.'

Seems like a shell game to me. Less so than the EITC, though. It's not that people through the CTC are now able to climb the ladder to job and economic security and achieve the American dream (TM). My sense is that they are still treading water, albeit at a different level, all while the credentialed class congratulates itself over its magnanimity.

If anyone has papers (peer-reviewed papers, not journalists' hot takes), I'd like to read them. Thanks.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#69
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are ignoring his first test. "Are they committing genocide?"

Well wasn't clear whether there's a logical AND or OR between the two. In case it's OR, would you say that interventions in china[1], iraq[2], Somalia[3], Kosovo[4], Cambodia[5] would be justified? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_the_Isl... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaaq_genocide [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War…

From a purely moral standpoint, we should probably go to war with China as we are very much ignoring genocide there right now. Our response was to sanction a few provincial level officials, but we still participated in the Olympics. Pretty pathetic response on our part overall. With that said, from a real world perspective, I'm not signing up to go to war with China as we are looking at an end of the world scenario if that happens. I don't think China is our match militarily but what else do they have in their biolabs and what would they be willing to unleash if they were losing. An estimated 3% (70–85 million people) of the world population at the time was killed in WWII, how many would die in a war between us and China? Short of armed conflict though we should be doing everything in our power to disconnect ourselves economically from them. We should be prioritizing manufacturing in the US.

Re: Expanded Child Tax Policy Slashed Child Poverty

#70

I wonder how much of an impact the printing of additional money to fund this experiment had on inflation.

Given that particular belief has been debunked by ten years of QE, it's not really a consideration is it.

All government spending occurs by 'printing money' because that's how bank clearing works. Balance sheets expand during the day and then shrink back at settlement time - but often not quite as far as they expanded. That's how a growing economy is accommodated.

When money is created, it will always either instantly pay off other loans somewhere or end up entirely in tax, unless somebody along the way doesn't spend it the instant they get it. That's because income, less tax and net loan repayments -> spending -> somebody else's income, less tax and net loan repayments.

To notice "printing money", it has to have been saved not spent somewhere along the spending chain. Therefore the real question we need the answer to is why certain people believe saving causes inflation?

In reality it is the deflationary drag of excess saving that is offset by 'printing money'. They are two sides of the same accounting journal.

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