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First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

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Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#71
post #19

What is the ideal sleeping position to maximize brain wash? Is it back, side, slightly inclined? Fluids theory would surely dictate how we can better align our body to encourage this. Intuition says our neck torsion must be instrumental to a good flow.

I assume you would want to rotate.

Centrifugal bed from IKEA.

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#72
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what exactly do you mean by alien head? not offended, just curious

You can google "hydrocephalus", though I should warn the images can be a bit disturbing

At least in the US, early intervention allows doctors to recommend shunts so extreme cases of hydrocephalus can be avoided and head sizes normalize a bit as kids grow. The photos are usually from med textbooks and for teaching future doctors and usually demonstrating the extreme forms.

Let’s not say alien head. My biggest worry as a young dad was my child being called names because of his head circumference. He too was born with HC.

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#73

Think of sleep as a powerwash for the sticky trash-covered movie theater floor that is your brain. When the big screen goes dark, break out the hoses and scrub away all that accumulated crud.

Sensory input goes dark, but the brain is quite active creating simulated spaces and threat response environments.

I had some crazy dream once when some unexpected home visitors in black suits suddenly started shooting at me and I did an all-out-effort to escape them, running/jumping like crazy. While I ran as fast as I could (it really felt that way), I heard some dampened noise as if somebody was screaming. Soon I somehow escaped and was suddenly waking up. That was when I realized it was me screaming while dreaming about escaping the attack. My heartbeat was over 180 as well. I am wondering what was my brain preparing me for.

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#74
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What helped me the most against my insomnia is simply accepting it. I just stopped fighting to try to sleep. It didn‘t help immediately, but at least the time that I wasn‘t falling asleep was less painful. Over time (several months/years) my insomnia eventually went away. Years later I listened to an audio book by The psychologist Viktor Frankl, that also helped me relax about the topic. And of course jogging (withou…

Wow - So a few comments on what you beautifully wrote for me: * I attempt to accept it and Breathe - (Some WIM HOF and I just received the book "BREATH" [0] technically i just received via grabbing from my book-shelf after having bought it 6-months ago, without ever picking it up.... :-( --> :-)) [0] https://www.mrjamesnestor.com/ --- But running used to be my thing... in ~2002 I was running 15 miles a day at ~5 MPH.…

did the running help with sleep? thats a lot of running!

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#75
post #3

Very cool. My daughter has a brain shunt due to complications of spina bifida and so we’re thinking of cerebrospinal fluid on a regular basis. As a layman I guess there’s a particular cerebrospinal fluid pressure you want, and that being too high or too low causes issues? Apparently the shunt just drains into her belly so I also found that interesting. Too high and she’ll have terrible headaches and an “alien” head (…

Too little CSF leads to the brain crushing itself under gravity. The brain is almost entirely lipids which contributes to its buoyancy in CSF. Take away too much CSF, nothing for it to float in. Too much CSF? The skull is a fixed volume (in adults) so the CSF compresses the brain tissue. In kids, the sutures or junctions between bones of the skull are still flexible. This allows for childbirth and normal rapid brain…

Had a spinal leak after a spinal tap. So too little fluid. It’s a very unique pain.

Severe pain at top of head unless laying flat.

I spent an entire week laying flat on a couch with a happy cat sitting on my chest.

Initial treatment was an IV of caffeine. Then they they had to patch the hole.

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too little CSF leads to the brain crushing itself under gravity. The brain is almost entirely lipids which contributes to its buoyancy in CSF. Take away too much CSF, nothing for it to float in. Too much CSF? The skull is a fixed volume (in adults) so the CSF compresses the brain tissue. In kids, the sutures or junctions between bones of the skull are still flexible. This allows for childbirth and normal rapid brain…

Had a spinal leak after a spinal tap. So too little fluid. It’s a very unique pain. Severe pain at top of head unless laying flat. I spent an entire week laying flat on a couch with a happy cat sitting on my chest. Initial treatment was an IV of caffeine. Then they they had to patch the hole.

>Initial treatment was an IV of caffeine.

For you, or for the cat?

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#77

Interesting but is there any comparison with CSF while awake? Is there more CSF movement while sleeping?

Hello!

This 2019 paper touches on CSF while awake -- CSF tends to be coupled with the respiration cycle. We know that you can also induce CSF flow by changing respiration [1].

Recent papers have shown that there can be coupling between the hemodynamic response and CSF while individuals are awake [2].

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3895787/pdf/204... 2. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0271678X2210746...

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#78
post #50

Very cool. I'd be very curious see if there are similar effects from basic meditation and/or from very advanced meditation in yogic or Buddhist traditions.

Hello!

Because we see significant changes in CSF that can be induced by respiration, and meditation is known to decrease the frequency of respiration, I would expect there to be significant effects of CSF flow with meditation [1].

Beyond this, we know that with individuals who are good at meditating seem to induce theta waves in EEG [2]. Because there is a coupling between EEG/fMRI global hemodynamic signal/CSF flow, I would also expect there to be a change in CSF that may be coupled with the EEG rhythms.

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3895787/pdf/204... 2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19922249/

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies may have suggested something, does not mean they have proven that same thing. Also, "toxic memory impairing proteins" is some kind of hand-wavy journalistic clickbait and not actual science.

> proven Studies don't "prove" things. "toxic memory impairing proteins" is literally what they are. They impair memory and when they accumulate, they are toxic. There's nothing hand-wavy about it. These words have meaning.

Hello!

Exactly! However, there has been also a lot of research that has built upon this 2019 paper -- here is a nice review article that touches on what we now know about changes in CSF and how that is coupled with neurodegenerative diseases.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.smrv.2021.101572

Re: First images of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain during sleep (2019)

#80
post #7

Re falling asleep during MRI - I was a subject in a study where for about an hour you had to lie in a machine and repeatedly indicate which of two pictures depicted a larger object. They said subjects falling asleep was a big problem! I find sleeping very difficult and even I was feeling extremely drowsy after 45 mins of lying down and establishing "elephants are bigger than mice. Houses are bigger than shoes. Trees…

I have to get an MRI roughly once a year to monitor a benign cyst and ensure it doesn't start to grow. My first experiences with MRI were okay. Certainly not pleasant but not an issue. I can't even imagine actually falling asleep inside an MRI though. Last year I actually went the other direction. I was switched to a somewhat older MRI machine in a different building, apparently somehow "due to COVID." I thought the…

My first MRI was in a tiny tube model. And I’m a big dude.

Never knew I was claustrophobic. I wouldn’t talk to anyone for a full day.

Used anxiety meds after that. Doesn’t bother me anymore, but haven’t been in one that small since

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