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Israel rolls out laser defense system

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Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. I'm a progressive. I have family in Israel. I would be very upset if Israel were to cease to exist. And yet I don't agree with all Zionist principles, e…

> I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. You're really can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist though, Israel is a Zionist state. It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be ret…

I'm really bummed Israel gave back all of Sinai to Egypt. The nomadic tribes in that area already keep getting screwed by Egypt. Sinai is sparsely populated. I believe a lot of the [Egyptian] population left because of the Yom Kippur War.

For my fantasy thinking of what could have been:

Core principles of all this is Israel's amazing awe inspiring work of being able to turn any land into gold. Along with Egypt and the other Arab powers from 49 to 73 sucked. I mean they suck today too, but those were the major military fight time periods. Arab powers had no morals or principles to go to war at any point. Most of all, they never cared about Palestinians. Egypt kept losing. Egypt does not treat Sinai outside of the are close to Suez Canal well.

60% of Sinai is kept by Israel in the 70s and 80s. As a sign of good will soon after to get back closer to the current relations, Israel gives another 1/3 back. This leaves 40%. A whopping 9K sq miles. The equivalent of all of Israel + Palestine. 20% going to Palestine, possibly the nomadics in the area too. That increases Palestine's land by close to 100%. Possibly the nomadic tribes get in on this too. The increase for Israel is close to double too.

The rest would be more buffer for Israel, more land for settlements, and more space for defensive and military purposes.

Even if this is too much, even dividing these numbers all by half is still huge.

If this was the case, it might be worth it to simplify things and close out Gaza as much as possible as it is now. With the right politics and incentives, a majority of the population can move to Sinai territory. Gaza is such a mess, with assistance from Israel and other countries, economically, the moved land would be easy to be better.

At some point during this, Hamas or similar in Gaza would increase attacks. This gives an excuse to go through with this plan. If after all this, there's a population of ~20% of Gaza remaining there, like 350K people...I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'd think giving them Israeli citizenship (as Arabs) would be best. Not all 500K would be vetted and allowed. If 250-300K are, that's not going to tilt the demographics or politics of Israel in any serious way. That's at most 3.5% of Israel's population.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. You're really can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist though, Israel is a Zionist state. It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be ret…

I get your point but I'd like to be a little more optimistic and flexible about how I see the future playing out. I think at this point writing off Israel as being Zionist and never anything but is a bit like doing the same with the USA around the time of its inception, saying it'll never be anything but a slaveholding colonial fief to the British. I'd like to think there are possible futures where things change for…

Are you American? I'm Pro-American and I don't agree that I am not Pro-American just because I believe a decent chunk, like 5% of continental America, should be given to Native Americans if they want that.

I don't see what that has to do with being Pro-American. Being selfish and greedy and nationalist are bad principles to me. That's anti-American to me.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that's a reductionist viewpoint, both to say that if you're not a Zionist you're in favor of Israel being dismantled, and to imply that you can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist. There's more to Zionism than being for or against the existence of Israel. You're really can't be pro-Israel without being a Zionist though, Israel is a Zionist state. It's like being pro American but wishing for it to be ret…

I'm really bummed Israel gave back all of Sinai to Egypt. The nomadic tribes in that area already keep getting screwed by Egypt. Sinai is sparsely populated. I believe a lot of the [Egyptian] population left because of the Yom Kippur War. For my fantasy thinking of what could have been: Core principles of all this is Israel's amazing awe inspiring work of being able to turn any land into gold. Along with Egypt and th…

I like the idea but what the Palestinians are fighting for isn't really a Palestinian land "somewhere". It's about returning to their old homes pre 1948. You could just as well say that Jordan is already majority Palestinian - so there's your Palestinian state, but that's not gonna end the conflict. The conflict is now religious as well. And it's about ego, and hatred, and pride, and envy. It's not something that's just waiting to be pragmatically solved unfortunately. We need to solve human psychology somehow.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point but I'd like to be a little more optimistic and flexible about how I see the future playing out. I think at this point writing off Israel as being Zionist and never anything but is a bit like doing the same with the USA around the time of its inception, saying it'll never be anything but a slaveholding colonial fief to the British. I'd like to think there are possible futures where things change for…

Are you American? I'm Pro-American and I don't agree that I am not Pro-American just because I believe a decent chunk, like 5% of continental America, should be given to Native Americans if they want that. I don't see what that has to do with being Pro-American. Being selfish and greedy and nationalist are bad principles to me. That's anti-American to me.

Being non Zionist as far as I understand the term today is calling for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state - by demographically allowing millions of Palestinian refugee descendants to move there and/or by violently uprooting the Jews from there as the Iranians are trying to do. So this is much more than giving up 5%.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really bummed Israel gave back all of Sinai to Egypt. The nomadic tribes in that area already keep getting screwed by Egypt. Sinai is sparsely populated. I believe a lot of the [Egyptian] population left because of the Yom Kippur War. For my fantasy thinking of what could have been: Core principles of all this is Israel's amazing awe inspiring work of being able to turn any land into gold. Along with Egypt and th…

I like the idea but what the Palestinians are fighting for isn't really a Palestinian land "somewhere". It's about returning to their old homes pre 1948. You could just as well say that Jordan is already majority Palestinian - so there's your Palestinian state, but that's not gonna end the conflict. The conflict is now religious as well. And it's about ego, and hatred, and pride, and envy. It's not something that's j…

Hm. From my anecdotal and looking into all this, this does not appear to be the case. I've talked to dozens of Palestinians from or in Gaza. Then add in the likely 100+ that people I know have talked to. Sure 2-300 people is still anecdotal, but if not a single one of them is fighting for what you are claiming, it's hard to believe that is actually true of the great population.

You seem to be talking about shit that Iran stirs up. Hamas strips up, etc. Iran isn't Palestine at all. People who actually seriously care about Hamas' alleged goals, are not a large number of people.

It also isn't as simple as saying "look this person helped with some violent initiative from Gaza linked to Hamas - they must be fighting for pre 1948 land". That's not true any more across the board. Not this amount of time later.

My fantasy idea would have begun 50 years ago. In 1973 latest. There would be some 3rd generation people being born in lands in Sinai this decade now.

Which Palestinians are you thinking of who are still fighting this pre-1948 home thing?

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> You could just as well say that Jordan is already majority Palestinian

What does this mean? Jordan isn't Palestine.

I have mentioned this multiple times. The Arab World surrounding Israel and Palestine give zero fucks about the Palestinians. They always have. Jordan's govt would rather get $10 than save a Palestinian's life. None of them have done any thing to show any sense of remorse for their repeated stupid pitiful war actions that ended up primarily hurting Palestinians. All the countries have had decades upon decades to do something, any thing. None have. Unless they hurt Palestinians even more (like Egypt). This Jordan example means nothing unless there's some sort of conflation of Arab [in power] across different countries are naturally "bros" of some kind. Which is not the situation.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you American? I'm Pro-American and I don't agree that I am not Pro-American just because I believe a decent chunk, like 5% of continental America, should be given to Native Americans if they want that. I don't see what that has to do with being Pro-American. Being selfish and greedy and nationalist are bad principles to me. That's anti-American to me.

Being non Zionist as far as I understand the term today is calling for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state - by demographically allowing millions of Palestinian refugee descendants to move there and/or by violently uprooting the Jews from there as the Iranians are trying to do. So this is much more than giving up 5%.

Your previous comment stated you didn't see how it can work to be pro-American and want to give land back to Native Americans. I put out 5% as a random number. That was for the continental US only. I think Hawaii, Alaska, and say another 20% of continental America should be given to Native Americans and others mistreated by my country, etc.

We see understanding of terms isn't simple. I believe doing the above is very Pro-American and a great thing to do.

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I have not understood Zionism that way. I regularly see hot take news and youtube try to pigeonhole stuff into attempting to describe some one as non Zionist and then pin things like dismantling Israel as part of that descriptor.

Here is a take of how not being a Zionist is not what you understand it as. Meghan McCain is as pro-Israel (alongside little if any regard for Palestine) as you can get. She wears those politics on her sleeves as transparently as you can get while having no ties to Israel outside friends with Israeli ties.

"McCain said. “I would go so far as to say I probably verge on being a Zionist as well.”[0]

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> Iranians are trying to do

The Iranians are not doing that much. For an example right around the corner for what trying to uproot people in a land means, you can see what is happening in Yemen. Now that is trying. Comparatively, the amount of effort going into propping up Hamas is inconsequential. It's not good. It's bad. Iran is bad here. Hamas is bad here.

[0] https://www.thedailybeast.com/meghan-mccain-breaks-down-in-t...

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I think this comes down more to not the literal words being used all the time. But who is saying them, how they are, and more.

I know when some people, like a friend of my uncle's says he is not Zionist. Knowing him. Hell, if you hear him talk for just a little while. You know what he means. He means something closer to what you meant.

The actual phrase doesn't give it away. Every thing he says gives it away. Meanwhile, I hope everything I say give away I am not like that at all. In fact, that same person I believe has essentially called me some semblance of Jewish (as a pejorative). So I mean :/

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea but what the Palestinians are fighting for isn't really a Palestinian land "somewhere". It's about returning to their old homes pre 1948. You could just as well say that Jordan is already majority Palestinian - so there's your Palestinian state, but that's not gonna end the conflict. The conflict is now religious as well. And it's about ego, and hatred, and pride, and envy. It's not something that's j…

Hm. From my anecdotal and looking into all this, this does not appear to be the case. I've talked to dozens of Palestinians from or in Gaza. Then add in the likely 100+ that people I know have talked to. Sure 2-300 people is still anecdotal, but if not a single one of them is fighting for what you are claiming, it's hard to believe that is actually true of the great population. You seem to be talking about shit that…

> Which Palestinians are you thinking of who are still fighting this pre-1948 home thing?

It's the publicly declared goal of Hamas, BDS, and most of the Palestinian diaspora. The PLO is an interesting case - traditionally they also never forfeited the right of return but Abu Mazen made some interesting claims around a decade ago about how he personally doesn't want to go back to his old home or something like that. Nevertheless, it seems impossible for any Palestinian leader to publicly forfeit the right of return. Its political (and possibly physical) suicide for anyone who tries that. The right of return is foundational for Palestinians, I find it surprising you haven't picked that up from talking to Palestinians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return#Sc...

"The majority of Palestinians consider that their homeland was lost during the establishment of Israel in 1948, and see the right of return as crucial to a peace agreement with Israel, even if the vast majority of surviving refugees and their descendants do not exercise that right"

Now the even if the the vast majority do not exercise that right is speculation imo, and wrong. Many will exercise that right (otherwise why insist on this? it's a no go for any peace plan).

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically they've not done that because they know the IDF's response is proportional to the civilian casualties on the Israeli side. Better to wait for clear weather when iron dome is maximally effective.

This doesn't make any sense. The whole point is to get a bigger IDF response, bloodier palestinian casualties, louder western media coverage and larger help packages to pocket.

I do not believe this is entirely accurate. Some truths there, but a healthy lack of nuance. I always steelman a fellow web citizen's comments. However, I am finding it difficult to do here with the lack of civility, courtesy, & respect onto others.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#249
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish there was more clarity on what this rule actually means. I can see how this particular comment would get a side-eye (though I think it doesn't stand out among the others in this thread), but when I look through my recent comments I'm having trouble figuring out the line here.

I've written a lot about this. Maybe some of the past explanations will help? https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... I took another look at your comment history and I agree it's a borderline case. Still, comments like these are the sort of ideological battle thing we're asking people specifically to avoid here: https://news.ycomb…

What I'm understanding is that my account would be fine if I had a bunch of other posts in between my existing ones, and the other posts were all about Java optimization or Apache version control or other "non-political" topics.

I guess it seems kind of a strange rule. Stated another way, "If 50% or more of your posts relate to controversial/political topics, you're in violation". The posts are fine, I'm just supposed to have other posts there to reduce their proportion of the total. It seems strange to convict on the absence of certain posts.

I will of course endeavor to follow the rule. It is your website after all. But just some thoughts on it:

I just find social issues interesting, I don't believe like that's wrong or destructive. (If it was being aggressive or unthoughtful about them that would be an issue but I try to be thoughtful and make meaningful points.)

I don't think commenting on controversies has to degrade the site. For example, the subreddit r/TheMotte has some of the best discussion on the internet and it's 100% about the culture war.

I could have had an alt account that I use for more 'acceptable' topics. Many people don't want their thoughts on controversial topics to be associated with their public persona. This rule basically bans having an alt account in this way.

Note that I'm not focused on one issue; I comment on lots of different issues. Yes I have a unifying philosophy but so does everyone. I think a rule against single-issue activist accounts would make more sense.

In any case thanks for responding.

Re: Israel rolls out laser defense system

#250
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've written a lot about this. Maybe some of the past explanations will help? https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... I took another look at your comment history and I agree it's a borderline case. Still, comments like these are the sort of ideological battle thing we're asking people specifically to avoid here: https://news.ycomb…

What I'm understanding is that my account would be fine if I had a bunch of other posts in between my existing ones, and the other posts were all about Java optimization or Apache version control or other "non-political" topics. I guess it seems kind of a strange rule. Stated another way, "If 50% or more of your posts relate to controversial/political topics, you're in violation". The posts are fine, I'm just suppose…

I know it seems like a strange rule at first glance, but I think (or hope!) it will seem less strange if you get the point being made here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... Basically, there's a big gap between the type of account that uses HN primarily for political battle and the type of account that uses HN for intellectual curiosity. That's just an empirical observation. The rule is a reasonably fair way to take advantage of that observation for HN's good, since one of those poles is very much what the site is for and the other very much not.

When I say your account is a borderline case, another way of putting it is that you're kind of falling in that gap. Not many accounts do that but some do. And yeah, in that context, everything you're saying here makes sense.

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