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Amazon Pip Horror Story

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Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#581

I've been an Amazon SDE and an Amazon SDM. I enjoyed my time as an SDE, luckily free from these horror stories. After having been an SDM, I understand how these horror stories can form. Generally, Amazon has two minds about performance management. In written documentation, it's all about whether your reports meet the role guidelines. The written documentation is solid. They share how to evaluate people objectively an…

> lazy manager.

No, this sociopath manager pushed the big red button in order to goose their own ghoulish metrics and perhaps get an extra on call shift or two out of the engineer.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#582

At this point, I'm not sure why anyone would choose to work at Amazon over other companies. What do they offer over their competitors? Same work and pay at other big tech, but you don't have to worry about potentially crazy hours or getting fired for no reason. Or any of the other great companies outside of big tech. Good pay, good impact, no PIP culture. Recruiters from AMZN are trying to lure me away from Google (a…

you are forgetting Facebook. it is Amazon culture on steroids

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#584

At this point, I'm not sure why anyone would choose to work at Amazon over other companies. What do they offer over their competitors? Same work and pay at other big tech, but you don't have to worry about potentially crazy hours or getting fired for no reason. Or any of the other great companies outside of big tech. Good pay, good impact, no PIP culture. Recruiters from AMZN are trying to lure me away from Google (a…

you are forgetting Facebook. it is Amazon culture on steroids

Right, I could work at Facebook, where they seem to be betting the company on an idea that Mark Zuckerberg got after watching a sci-fi movie -- that I'm not sure anyone is remotely excited about.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#585

(dare I ask what a dev plan (pip) is?) quick google check... Development plan is a regular plan which you do with your manager, where you are focusing on your career progress. You focus on your strengths and weaknesses. Based on this plan you will get tasks which will utilize skills you are good at and also help you to improve skills you want to have improved. PIP is a plan which is assigned to employees with unsatis…

It’s how you fire people in tech companies. You put them on a PiP, give them some tasks to do and then fire them when they don’t deliver. Obviously nobody survives the PiP because for an engineer not on a pip, taking 9 weeks on an 8 week project is pretty good, but on a pip 9 weeks for an 8 week project is a failure to deliver and you’re out. Obviously this is evil bullshit, but I’ve been in this industry for a very…

I think it it depends on the company and manager. I got a PIP once (at a FAANG, in the US), and it really felt like my manager had put a lot of effort into designing something that was achievable and customized to my situation. "Passing" the PIP would have required only a slight ramping up of my admittedly very low performance at the time.

My manager either wanted me to start doing my job again, or leave and create a space on the team for someone who would. He seemed slightly biased in favor of keeping me on the team. It didn't seem like a fun situation for him to deal with at all.

I ended up leaving, but it's because I was disengaged and didn't see a way out of it. (And I had great offers elsewhere.) Not because my manager was being abusive.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#586
post #359

I've been an Amazon SDE and an Amazon SDM. I enjoyed my time as an SDE, luckily free from these horror stories. After having been an SDM, I understand how these horror stories can form. Generally, Amazon has two minds about performance management. In written documentation, it's all about whether your reports meet the role guidelines. The written documentation is solid. They share how to evaluate people objectively an…

What's the justification for an attrition target? It seems such a weird thing to want your staff to leave.

On theory it makes sense. Any large organization experience bloat and there are lots of white collar employees who do nothing while collecting a salary. Regularly trimming the fat is good.

In practice however, attrition goals are terrible. It destroys team cohesion, encourages people to sabotage eachother and incentivizes sociopathic tendencies. If you know the lowest performers will get kicked out, then you have every incentive not to help those around you.

Typically the people who get pushed out are not the lowest performers, but rather those who have pushovers as managers. A vicious manager can fight and defend his reports. The weak ones end up sending someone to the "least effective" bucket, about half of which get fired in the next few months.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#587
post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The devils advocate answer: Statistically, some of your employees probably aren’t good enough to be worth employing. But managers are human, hard conversations are hard, there are lots of incentives to not manage those people out. By having an attrition target and forcing people to cut the bottom 10%, you basically skip over the soft fuzzy human factors keeping people around, and instead fall back to the statistical…

> the statistical truth that the worst 10% probably are negative value employees. Why is this a statistical truth? In a large, Gaussian distributed population MAYBE this is true (but hiring isn’t random, is it?). But the thresholds are not applied to large populations anywhere I’ve worked. It’s pressure applied to management at all levels.

> In a large, Gaussian distributed population

Where do we get one of those?

The central limit theorem doesn't give us one of those. Not even the Lindeberg-Feller central limit theorem. Neither does the strong law of large numbers. Nor the weak law of large numbers. Nor the martingale convergence theorem.

There is some old material, from about 100 years ago, in schools of education that given a performance measure and a large population the measure will be Gaussian distributed on that population, and the larger the population the closer to a Gaussian distribution. An example is supposed to be the size of the largest eigenvalue in a principle components decomposition. Uh, that largest eigenvalue was long called IQ (intelligence quotient). Nothing intelligent about it. Nonsense. 100% total crackpot nonsense. Brain-dead, cult nonsense.

"Low performers" in need of a "performance improvement program" (PIP)? Start with the managers who believe in a Gaussian distribution. Then move to the managers who believe that the "bottom 20%" are always low performers.

A lot is known about how to be a good manager, and the Gaussian probability density distribution is not part of that.

I've seen a lot of bad managers. A pattern is that they are tyrants, have lots of rules and measures, are big on formality over reality, dot i's and cross t's with great reliability, and have everyone with their nose to the grindstone, ear to the ground, shoulder to the wheel and trying to work in that position. But the organization is stagnant, is not changing or keeping up with the market or technology. So, after a few years like that, it becomes obvious to everyone, customers, BoD, stockholders, employees, even nearly all of the managers that the organization is about ready to die, and often that's what happens, e.g., by firing 50% of the people and going downhill from there.

Once I saw a failing organization where nearly all the managers except at the lowest level were part of a tight clique, cult enforcing failure. Finally the BoD installed a new CEO and fairly soon 80+% of the clique, cult were given "PIPs" and demoted out of management or retired.

But there is also good evidence that even such a sick organization does not have to die and, instead, just needs some good management, starting at the CEO level. In particular, with a good CEO, suddenly, wonder of wonders, 90+% of the employees can be seen as great performers.

So, net, as bad as the situation can be, it is fair to say that Darwin is on the case with improvement on the way!

At one time Amazon was a small mail-order book and record shop run by Bezos from a small office. At least looking from 10,000 feet up, Bezos was a good manager, and, thus, I doubt that he was playing with the Gaussian distribution, firing his bottom 20%, stack ranking, etc. Instead he knew all the employees and the work of each. Sooooo, it sounds like now Bezos should leave outer space, return to Amazon, and fix the destructive nonsense that is ruining the company.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#588
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then senior management should be wondering why so many low performers are ending up with certain managers...

In my experience it almost never works like this. The fish rots from the head. I've found bad managers are able to exist, even thrive, due to a culture of loyalty. Having worked in several countries this is a very Corporate America thing (IME). Loyalty is the only trait that matters. Fealty might be a more accurate description. So that bad manager's manager looks at a situation where people are leaving. Those people…

This is true. I suffered a lot until I learned that showing loyalty is necessary for having a career in a big company.

Most people don't care at all about doing a good job. They just want more money. To get along with them, you must help them get more money. If you oppose them on anything, they will make you suffer. And if they have the skills, they will manipulate and gaslight you. You can't make anyone do their work well. People work well when the organization is set up for it. If you can't tolerate your teammates' behavior, just move to a different team or company.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#590

This is a phenomenon common to all low grade/incompetent dev managers: When a dev asks for a team change they view it as a slap in the face because it has happened to them so often in the past and they take it as a personal offence. The fact is they are lousy managers and usually incompetent and nobody wants to work in their team. So they go on the offensive and try to manage the dev out before senior management real…

This might not be the case here. As the OP theorized, they were already on the way out of the team, so why not use them to fill up the PIP quotas? The manager might not be incompetent, but they sure are an asshole

> they were already on the way out of the team, so why not use them to fill up the PIP quotas

Well, for starters, this LinkedIn post.

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