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Amazon Pip Horror Story

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Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#321

Some people meet this with a healthy level of scepticism, which is great. However I used to work at Amazon, working on the performance evaluation and HR tools used within the company. It was a couple of years back, but I am fairly certain that the same tools are still used, given that all of them were developed from scratch. At the time it was in line with the company's PR of removing its toxic work culture. It's wor…

Some people meet this with a healthy level of scepticism, which is great.

However I used to work at Amazon, working on the performance evaluation and HR tools used within the company.

It was a couple of years back, but I am fairly certain that the same tools are still used, given that all of them were developed from scratch.

At the time it was in line with the company's PR of removing its toxic work culture.

It's worth mentioning that it wasn't uncommon for people to move around teams, and to be honest HR is not the most exciting field for software development anyways.

So, as expected, the HR dev teams had people move around quite a bit.

Nothing toxic so far.

One of the projects I worked on was what used to be called the dev list or personal improvement plan (pip) now renamed to Pivot. Most likely the exact same same tool.

Management wanted to update the processes in order to automate as much as possible and reduce the risk of managers putting someone in pip, just because they didn't like them.

However the process was set up in such a way that a manager can progress an employee through a pip for waaaay too long, until a failsafe, or a second pair of eyes even takes a look at it.

I, personally, voiced my concerns about it, but it was shrugged off as "it shouldn't happen", "managers wouldn't do that" and "it's fine" by the project stakeholders.

The project starts, development is going a usual and a couple of years go by.

I moved to another project within the HR space.

Most of the team developing the tool has also moved on to greener pastures.

Apart from that one guy, who has been there since its inception.

He went from being a backend engineer, learning React and painstakingly working on a messy frontend codebase, eventually leaving him the only person competent enough to make changes to it.

Eventually he was fed up and wanted to move to a different team. Lo and behold - his manager, the manager of the team building the pip tool, put him in pip to prevent him from moving.

Haven't seen someone decide and actually leave a company as quickly as he did.

So if the manager of the pip company can use it to blackmail people not to leave, I can't even imagine what it's like for the rest of the company.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#323

Why are people who do this never named? They should be named. This type of behavior perpetuates because despite this employee revealing a company issue.. the individual perpetrator can still hide behind anonymity. CALL these ass holes out.

(I didn't read the article; the page seems to be down).

A lot of these cases end up with the manager not necessarily having a lot of blame since they might not have full information on what's happening. They might also be in a similar performance crisis of their own.

If the entire company is having cultural problems and PIP horror stories are common, then the fault is from the people on the top and not from the M1 that laid out the PIP.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#324
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This unfortunately didn't answer any of my questions.

Senior managers at AMZN have shared privately that there was a time after the NYT story where this was removed or not as strictly enforced. That time is now gone, and goals are tied to your percentage. A team failing to meet its yearly goal can be expected to be asked to let go 15% vs. the standard 10% say. It’s real and as messy as people are sharing. Some teams are better off than others.

Reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(punishment)

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#325
post #234
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why I think contract work is the most honest form of employment in the software industry. "Mission statements" and "customer zeal" are meaningless when you're having to do endless weekend and evening hours. If it means so much to you, pay me by the hour first, then we can talk about devotion to the customer.

If my health insurance weren't so dependent on employment, I'd agree more.

It is true, a lot of tech companies will give you very good medical coverage without pay period fees but at the end of the day this boils down to money. Your salary is adjusted based on the company paying whatever rates they pay to offer you great insurance.

When doing contract work, you might be paying $500 / month out of pocket for medical insurance but your hourly rate is likely higher than your hourly rate as a W-2 employee even after factoring in company holidays, PTO and 401k matching. You also have the option of not buying insurance if you really wanted to.

Most insurance in the US is horrendous too. The whole system is optimized to provide you the least amount of coverage while making the process as inefficient as possible for you. I spent literally 12 hours on the phone over a few calls trying to get basic information from a few different dental insurance providers, in the end I got nothing concrete out of it and the only way I could have gotten concrete numbers is if I submit a form that takes 30 days to get processed except in the US you only have 30 days a year where you're allowed to enroll into insurance. Basically it was impossible for me to pick insurance based on coverage because it's impossible to know the coverage without first signing up and then you're stuck in it for a year in which case everything resets the next year and the process has to start again from scratch.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#327
post #188

I’ve worked at Amazon. I made it a few years, but was almost pipped in the first few months. Management dropped a huge project on me, a brand new tier 1 service, with full dns resolution, api, database, distributed system, along with micro services. The deadline was three months. Brand new tech stack. When I was struggling to meet the deadline, we started having “performance conversations”. I ended up switching teams…

A side effect of working for asshole companies like that for years is I’ve slowly developed a zero fucks attitude and an immunity to threats and carrots dangled in front of me. I can sit there as a project is falling over the edge of a cliff with total inner peace. My interest stops at the pay cheque and by the clock.

Bravo! I'm working with and for genuinely great people, but my past experiences with such "stick and carrot" bullshit mean I still treat my employer (i.e. the legal entity) as the schoolyard bully: don't cross their radar.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#328
post #259
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

700 a day??? Why did you undercharge by so much. I know the EU dev market isn't great but those are rookie numbers for "danger money." Three of the "retired, then handed enough money to unretire" COBAL guys at my old place were doing 2500 a day.

Where do you live that 700€ a DAY is low pay? It’s, that’s MORE than 700$ a day, not less. Consider that most parts of the world have lower cost of living than the Bay Area.

That’s roughly equivalent to 120,000 Euro/year once normalized for taxes (~50% for self-employed, ~30% for employees).

I have no idea what typical salaries are in the EU, but that’s on the low end of mid-career for much of the US.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#330
post #234
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why I think contract work is the most honest form of employment in the software industry. "Mission statements" and "customer zeal" are meaningless when you're having to do endless weekend and evening hours. If it means so much to you, pay me by the hour first, then we can talk about devotion to the customer.

If my health insurance weren't so dependent on employment, I'd agree more.

Just factor that into your cost of business. Your day rate should be 3x your salary rate in part for this reason as well as the unpredictability of future employment.
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