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Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

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Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#51

Post by rjsw »

BrissyCoder wrote: post #16

This is a good question and something I've been thinking about lately. I can't see my kid getting anywhere near of an explorative and self-learning experience that I had in the 80s with the tech available today.

I don't have kids but I don't see any difference in how you can teach yourself now from in previous years.

I was just given a BASIC manual around 1977 and started writing software, been doing it ever since.

I would have loved an FPGA dev board as a child, plugging TTL chips into a solderless breadboard was fun but there is a limit to the size of circuit that you can build.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#52

Post by buescher »

The Apple II was not what I got at the time, and its graphics and sound were really sub-par compared to cheaper competition, but it was a really nice combination of things that are hard to match:

1) It had very fast storage for the time

2) It had excellent documentation in the box

3) The BASIC interpreters were better than what shipped with the Atari and Commodore machines

4) Apple LOGO was particularly well executed for something on an 8-bit machine

5) I had the impression it was easier at the time to get pirated copies of more sophisticated software like macro assemblers, Apple Pascal, etc for the Apple; Commodore and Atari circles were about the games

6) It had a built-in debugger ("monitor") with mini assembler

7) It had card slots that were straightforward to interface to - building real hardware for it was possible for a hobbyist. Also, it was affordable and practical to have an 80-column display

8) As you've noted the educational software for younger kids was exceptional

I just don't see anything remotely like that today but a used Apple II, and even then you're not going to have the ferment of early-mid-eighties home computer culture.

The counterargument is that today we have an embarassment of riches - the paradox of choice - and if you carefully select hardware and software and books for your kids (Scratch or Snap, paint programs, robotics kits, whatever takes with their interests) there's a much bigger world for them to explore.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#53

Post by m-i-l »

My daughter just built her very own Raspberry Pi 4 based computer[0] last weekend for her 10th birthday. Key points:

- She picked the components herself (with dad's supervision to make sure they would work together), so the case and keyboard and so on are ones she likes the look of and wants on her desk.

- She assembled it all and installed the OS herself (again with dad supervising but trying really hard not to help except when requested), so I'm hoping she'll have a much stronger sense of ownership due to the Ikea effect[1].

Still too early to see how well it has worked, but she's been very excited about it so far and proud of her accomplishment. It's the 8Gb model and (as per dad's recommendation) she installed 64-bit Ubuntu on it, so she can use all the same systems and tools she sees her dad using. They are doing Scratch and Python in school, so the plan is for her to use it for at least those things, but she has shown interest in learning how to develop a mobile app, and I'm hoping it'll be a bit of a gateway for other potential interests like video editing, graphics editing etc.

Also want to add that I wouldn't be doing any of this if she hadn't seemed genuinely interested - I have this theory that trying to push children in a certain direction will end up being counter-productive, i.e. you push and they rebel and end up wanting to go the opposite direction just because.

[0] https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#54

Post by em500 »

I think this is a lost cause. Other have already mentioned this, but I'll state it again. The computers themselves are the trivial part, both the hardware and the software. You can buy a budget 11- or 13-inch laptop, new for $300 or used for $100, load them with emulators of all the 1980s and 1990s machines, and have literally the same software and much better hardware than we did back then.

If you give that to them, odds are overwhelmingly (I'm guesstimating at least 99:1) that your kids might show some interest for less than 5 minutes, and them move on to their current preferred form of entertainment. You might stretch it a bit if there is a knowledgable and enthusiastic adult sitting with them all the time, but most will only continu when the adult is present. How many hours can you spare?

Back in the 1980s, we had 3 tv channels (with mostly boring adult programming), a library that we visited a few times per month, to take out 6 books per visit, a video store where we rented movies a few times per year. Even in that restrictive setting with far less competition for attention, most of the (few) children who hade home computers only used them (personal schoolyard experience) to consume (cracked) games. Nowadays, with the endless streams of highly optimised attentions sinks (all-you-can-eat video channels, adware/IAP touch screen "games"), just giving them open-ended ways to create or great creative experiences does not stand any chance.

Now maybe your children are among the very few that do have an aptitude for open-world creativity. You can probably tell with something like Lego, or paid games with some creation tools (Minecraft, Super Mario Maker). But don't be too disappointed if they show little interest or enthusiasm. It's not you, nor the hardware/software. It's the children themselves.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#55

Post by bencollier49 »

vnorilo wrote: post #36
bigiain wrote: post #5

I think the problem here is that the world has moved on a lot since some of us kids were amazed at what we could make machines like an AppleII do with basic (and assembler and peek and poke). I remember being amazingly proud of myself for getting an ascii version of Space Invaders working. I could, as a 10 or 12 year old, make something for myself that kinda looked like and was way more fun (for me) to play that _lit…

My 7yo is absolutely thrilled by scratch on Lego Mindstorms Robot Innovator [1]. The physicality of it is engaging. Granted, I'm generally a very restrictive parent about mobile/console gaming. 1: https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/robot-inventor-51515

I agree with this. I think robots are probably where it's at these days.

Kids sometimes like the simplicity of the old computer games, but as mentioned above, the old excitement at having your hands on cutting edge tech isn't there with a Raspi, or an old retro computer.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#56

Post by jasode »

>When I was a kid, I had an Apple II with a BASIC interpreter, [...] a computer like that, where there are a lot of open-ended ways to create.

I think your particular childhood memories that understandably left an imprint on you have inadvertently affected your idea of what "open-ended" creation means.

>, and great creative experiences don't seem available on desktop

I also grew up with those 8-bit computers and I don't think the Apple II / Commodore 64 / Texas Instruments TI-99 with burned in ROM BASIC and 64kb RAM are more creative. It was simply a different time and we as children just used the technology that happened to be available for the price point of home computers. If I ignore my childhood, I'd have to objectively weigh those early home computers as less open-ended. Sure, I had fun with BASIC "10 PRINT HELLO 20 GOTO 10" and giggled as the text infinitely scrolled up. But we all had lower standards of novelty because computers were not as powerful.

With today's desktop and a browser, kids can "be creative" with digital art or make music with more powerful tools. Many examples of expressive worlds are just a few clicks away with no software to install or EPROM cartridges to buy:

+ digital art: https://www.google.com/search?q=online+painting

+ digital music: https://www.google.com/search?q=online+beats+maker

+ Javascript is more powerful than ROM BASIC and the tools cost $0

With Commodore or TI computers, I couldn't even save my BASIC programs until my parents saved enough money for a $100 cassette tape interface or $200 for floppy drive. Instead of thinking my childhood time with computers was more creative, I'm actually jealous of what today's kids can do on modern desktop computers and the web.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#59

Post by resonious »

bigiain wrote: post #5

I think the problem here is that the world has moved on a lot since some of us kids were amazed at what we could make machines like an AppleII do with basic (and assembler and peek and poke). I remember being amazingly proud of myself for getting an ascii version of Space Invaders working. I could, as a 10 or 12 year old, make something for myself that kinda looked like and was way more fun (for me) to play that _lit…

I was a lot like your friend's 11-year-old when I was a kid. I loved games, and I loved clicking around to make custom content for games, but I didn't comprehend programming.

My mother at one point even installed and booted up Visual Basic for me once and I just didn't get it.

It wasn't until I was 16 or 17 before I actually started seriously getting into computing.

I guess some kids are "late bloomers" and some just don't have the aptitude for it.

Re: Ask HN: How can I make a “kid's computer” today as good as an Apple II?

#60

Post by thom »

Minecraft is the most popular computer game in history, it lets kids create and experiment, and I'm genuinely floored by the stuff mine get up to. They play Roblox and want to make Roblox games so are learning Lua in a simple REPL. My son makes custom Yu-Gi-Oh cards, writes his own comics, and composes music. This is all on the iPad, where, believe it or not, you can get Carmen Sandiago, Number Munchers (how is this not too directly educational?), Oregon Trail, and various LOGO implementations. I'm sorry if your kids aren't interested in the same stuff you are, but with all the love in the world, that's your baggage, not theirs.
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