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Amazon Pip Horror Story

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Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#181

Stories have two sides, someone on blind posted the following, and no one's challenged it so presumably it's true: > The guy made 24 CRs in his entire career at amazon, all in just one CDK package. > 50% of his CRs are merged without approval. > So, yeah, there you go !

Not sure there's enough context here to make a judgement. 24 change requests in a year seems okay? How complex were they? 50% no-approval sounds ok if he was the sole maintainer of a particular part of the code/etc. Maybe someone who's knowledgeable with the development of CDKs can shed some light on how reasonable those numbers are.

I had no idea that code could be merged without at least one peer review at any of the big tech companies. That seems like a management failure to me?

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#182
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can even be different in the same team. It's about who wins the bully lottery just like in school. Some will go through school totally oblivious to the fact that some people gets so bullied that they decide to end their lives a few years down the road. Once I came in to work in the evening, I had forgotten to bring my phone with me. There I find one of my coworkers crying his heart out because the women treat him…

The women treat him like shit? What was he optimizing?

Well he was the only male except for me so there was noone else to treat him badly. He was just taking over the invoicing that noone had time for anyway so I have no idea why they were treating him so bad. The ones that were doing the invoices were always complaining that they had to do that on top of their normal job. Some people just can't handle new people showing up and think it's a threat to them. Turns out they were right to feel threatened though, the company shut down the whole branch a few years later and moved everything.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#183

I’ve worked at Amazon. I made it a few years, but was almost pipped in the first few months. Management dropped a huge project on me, a brand new tier 1 service, with full dns resolution, api, database, distributed system, along with micro services. The deadline was three months. Brand new tech stack. When I was struggling to meet the deadline, we started having “performance conversations”. I ended up switching teams…

Maybe a silly question on my part; did you manage to learn a lot? In the past, I thought of putting myself in positions like these to increase my understanding in short time, at the short term expense of personal life. I wonder if that's just a stupid thought that leads to nothing but burnout, or actually a viable short-term strategy to get up to speed with some of the tech stack you know but haven't really used in p…

I worked for three years in a extremely customer driven company.

The last 1.5 of those I worked with what I consider two amazingly brilliant a####les.

I ended up leaving the most amazing place I had ever worked at until then (worldwide traveling, learning new stuff, actual high performance systems).

It has taken years to recover and I still cover myself more than I should.

My boss (who I liked) tried to get me back twice after he realized I had not been the problem and the two others had left but by then my salary had increased so much I was out of reach for him (edit:,) and telling my family I'd go down a double digit percentage in salary to work for someone who had not stood up for me back the was out of the question.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#184
post #21

How it started - https://i.imgur.com/7Cyia1U.jpeg How it is going - https://archive.fo/pdYHy#selection-525.105-525.423

The second post in your second link is shocking too: > One night, when I was a dev manager at Amazon, another dev manager in Seattle sent me a 20-page design document at 11:30 pm and told me that he wanted me to get him feedback by 5:30 am the next day. How fucking rude is that? It’s indicative of an absolutely staggering level of toxicity. Honestly, what a waste. Imagine how much better Amazon could be if they didn’…

And I wouldn't be surprised if that Seattle dev manager got pressured from above themselves. But at some point, someone has to set boundaries. If that manager then got pissy about it not being finished, there's a few lines to be used. One is "I was asleep". Another is "Night shifts and overtime are not in my contract", or "I do not get paid enough to do night shifts".

And another one, "A lack of planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on mine".

But here's what I think is going on: Amazon's higher-ups (the level(s) above these people) are intentionally making these managers put pressure on each other to keep them overworked and sedate. I feel like this is the case for a LOT of US work culture across a lot of areas. It applies to low wage jobs with a high chance of being fired as well. Keep people stressed about the short term and they won't have the headspace to worry about things outside of their sphere of influence. This allows the rich to get richer and the politicians to become more powerful (and incompetent).

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#185
post #21

How it started - https://i.imgur.com/7Cyia1U.jpeg How it is going - https://archive.fo/pdYHy#selection-525.105-525.423

The second post in your second link is shocking too: > One night, when I was a dev manager at Amazon, another dev manager in Seattle sent me a 20-page design document at 11:30 pm and told me that he wanted me to get him feedback by 5:30 am the next day. How fucking rude is that? It’s indicative of an absolutely staggering level of toxicity. Honestly, what a waste. Imagine how much better Amazon could be if they didn’…

Maybe said manager used to be a banker? Would certainly explain the casual attitude towards dropping docs at 1130PM, and demanding feedback 6 hours later.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second post in your second link is shocking too: > One night, when I was a dev manager at Amazon, another dev manager in Seattle sent me a 20-page design document at 11:30 pm and told me that he wanted me to get him feedback by 5:30 am the next day. How fucking rude is that? It’s indicative of an absolutely staggering level of toxicity. Honestly, what a waste. Imagine how much better Amazon could be if they didn’…

I expected some timezone difference was here but no - this is a just a toxic person.

it’s also worrying this person was checking his email at 1130pm.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR at Amazon is a shit show. I had $100 of pizza stolen from the fridge at Amazon and I mentioned it casually to HR, as something notable but not too important. And HR then decided to tell my manager without my knowledge. The manager then berated me over communicating about a "trivial matter." So yeah, wouldn't put much stock in HR at Amazon.

I know it's not the point, but how/why did you have $100 worth of pizza in the refrigerator? Edit: I'm trying to imagine scenarios where that could happen, I have two so far. You ordered pizza for a meeting that got canceled, and the office refrigerator was huge. Or you ordered from a fancy pizza place that had waygu or something as a topping. I'm sorry, I don't know why this is bothering me so much.

Or it was $100 worth of pizza spread over a longer period.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#188

I’ve worked at Amazon. I made it a few years, but was almost pipped in the first few months. Management dropped a huge project on me, a brand new tier 1 service, with full dns resolution, api, database, distributed system, along with micro services. The deadline was three months. Brand new tech stack. When I was struggling to meet the deadline, we started having “performance conversations”. I ended up switching teams…

A side effect of working for asshole companies like that for years is I’ve slowly developed a zero fucks attitude and an immunity to threats and carrots dangled in front of me.

I can sit there as a project is falling over the edge of a cliff with total inner peace.

My interest stops at the pay cheque and by the clock.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#189
This echoed so much what my girlfriend is experiencing at Amazon (London) that it is scary. She was not put on pip but one of her co-worker was last week. According to her the guy is competent and hard working.

Everything about the toxic culture, the (unpaid) on call every 4 weeks, management doesn't care about estimations they just set you impossible deadlines, lots of turnover in the team, custom, unstable not documented tools, the "customer first" narrative to make you work overtime and feel guilty. I hear about this everyday. Even me not working at Amazon I have sev2 PTSD.

Re: Amazon Pip Horror Story

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s absolutely a useful metric. I have managed many developers who insist their low LOC is in no way indicative of their productivity. They’ll say others are padding their code with comments, or writing bloated inefficient code, or that they themselves were tackling very tough problems that result in small (but tricky) fixes. Yes, we’ve all encountered that killer deadlock or memory leak deep in the runtime that tak…

50 LOC is industry average. See my earlier comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29246318 for a list of citations. One was: > slide 20 of https://www.slideshare.net/ddskier/calculating-the-cost-of-m... ("A world-class developer (e.g. Facebook or Google senior engineer) will write 50 LOC per day") I also found some two scholarly estimates, one at 81 LOC/day and the other at 16 SLOC. On this topic, don't forg…

> 50 LOC is industry average

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm talking about 50 LOC every 2 weeks or so. Like, seriously low LOC of seriously low-complexity (sometimes trivial) code.

I don't actually have a numerical target people should hit. Not at all. It's more like this: on several occasions now (all too common), I've taken over management of a team, and in our initial team meetings and 1:1s, some developer talks about what they're working on and say it's really challenging but they're making progress and making progress and making progress. Then a couple of weeks in, I look at their commit history, and they've committed 6 times in the last 3 months. I give them benefit of the doubt, those must have been 6 meaningful commits. Then the first thing that stands out, the first red flag: each commit is like 25-50 lines. At this point, I have very strong reason to think we have a problem. But of course, to confirm, you look at the code itself, and one commit is just adding a command-line argument/option to a python script. Another commit tweaks some CSS. Or does a bit of dict/list operations that any developer should be able to knock out in 30 minutes.

My first hint that I need to dig in was the low LOC. Obviously, no one goes to a performance plan because they're not "hitting numbers." And obviously, someone whose job is architecture, system design, etc, isn't coding all day, so I'm not at all concerned with how much code they're cranking out. But for those whose job is, primarily, to code, well if you're writing low-complexity code (which is OK in a lot of cases) but you're writing very little low-complexity code... that's a problem.

PS: For a couple of years on my last multi-hundred-developer project, I ran a twice-yearly Code Reduction Week, and I emcee'd the All-Hands where we celebrated the developers who deleted the most code.

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