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Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

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Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are we truly clean to judge? What kind of weird deflection is this? The US having done some horrible stuff in the past (or present) doesn't somehow excuse China doing horrible things too.

Even weirder is the implication that everyone reading this is going to be from the US, which is simply not true.

OK, the USA have a history of growing by slavery and genocides. That can't be changed and the descendants of the winners are better off than the descendants of the losers.

But people living in Europe had their own much longer history of genocides. Example, I'm Italian. If I could look back into my family tree for 2 or 3 millenia I'm sure I'll find all sort of nasty and nice people. Somebody who fought their local wars, somebody invaded by Latins, some Latin invader, somebody who went invading other countries, somebody invading Italy in the last 2k years, somebody that had a part in the few colonial wars fought by Italy in the last centuries, etc. Somebody from a family branch probably went to the USA or any other expanding country and they of their descendants had their share of helping killing off native people.

Replace Italy with another European county. They could have had a less nasty ancient history but they are likely to have a more recent nastier one. And replace with most countries around the world, they still have some huge or small stains in their history.

So this actually applies to nearly all people alive now. This means that we should condone China because they are doing what our ancestors did, maybe on different scale or maybe canceling cultures not by indoctrination but by removing heads from bodies? I don't think so. What's important is what we do, not what ancestors did. But don't forget what they did.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#92
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped eating Chinese food. That'll show 'em! No but seriously -- whether someone pops in with a serious change, or absolutely zero changes, what does that tell us about Uyghur oppression? What are you getting at?

OP is asking if we're actually willing to personally sacrifice in order to pressure China into not violating human rights. Or if we're all talk and no bite. And it's a fair question. Has anyone here even written to their senator? The only way the leadership of our country (I'm assuming most of us are in the US) is going to impose real sanctions and penalties on China is if we, as a people, vehemently demand it. Perso…

I understand your appeal to democracy here, but the US had no problems imposing sanctions on Russia and Iran and I don't recall there being an overwhelmingly popular campaign from the people for those. After the fact, sure, maybe

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#93
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Senator is Dianne Feinstein, whose husband personally created the China-shipping-products pipeline with early purchases of ships, shipping capacity, intermediate companies for low-ish prices, then spent decades carefully lowering the costs, to eventually make billions, and make sure that the assets involved were owned closely to prevent takeover. Maybe I should write her a letter?

> Maybe I should write her a letter? Yes, you should, because if there has been abuses of political power to engage in fraud, it should be investigated, and until then she should recuse herself from anything that may cast a doubt on her actions.

you badly misunderstand -- it is business advantage, not fraud. It was carefully, definitely, one hundred percent legal. I did not know someone could setup a holding company legally, purchase one container ship at a good price, since they are slow and expensive to buy, they are out there. But Richard Blum did find that out and buy one. That's not illegal. He worked hard to find that and execute the whole setup, then someone has to run it. Once it is making even a small profit, which takes many steps and largely is determined by the cost of the capital involved, there are others in the shipping world that would definitely just take it, with whatever means of lawyers etc that you, I, and Richard Blum don't know about. So the operation must be defended. Its not illegal, it is years of careful work. (edit: I sloppily changed ship type in the heat of this dramatic response, thinking back I believe it was an oil cargo ship, not a container ship, so that gets him off the hook for this thread. my bad)

Who knew that in fact, it would work, work big, get bigger and bigger and now thousands of super smart, unknown desk jockeys are nosing into your details, while there is sliding s** social problems right now? Who knew? not you or I.. I dont hate them for being super filthy rich in their 80s, and I dont disagree with many things they have done. She and her husband are personally very smart, have done kind things, have colleagues that did not succeed that they care about.. Its messy. I didnt build that business, I did not have the credit, focus or insight. I was getting high at a PJ Harvey concert when no one knew about her, or something. I get to decide what is right now and change it? entertaining writing by me, but one letter from me to her office is not the snowball that starts the avalanche, this is a serious heavy systems problem.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#94
So many holes in this story

It is a fact, today, go to streets of many cities and towns in xinjiang, Kashgar, Urumqi, Aksu, you will see kids running around on the streets, speaking in Ughur, Kazakh. Many Uyghur kids speak Uyghur among themselves. You will see cities signs in both Uyghur and mandarin. If Chinese government really have these "boarding schools" to completely ban minority languages, why would kids still speak them on the streets? Why would you have Uyghur on street signs!

If these schools, kids are treated "heads were shaved and that class monitors and teachers frequently hit them", why would you still see Uyghur kids runing on the street, playing, and look happy??

The fact is this, all schools in Xinjiang will teach Manderian and Uyghur. Schools will also have many classes on Uyghur cultures. Here is a interview at a school in xinjiang https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-H49vUhPDg&ab_channel=%E9%B...

There are 20 Million Uyghur people in China. If Chinese government's treatment of Uyghur children at schools is "shaving their heads and teachers beating them", I would think everyone will revolt and try to escape the country. Yet, why would over 20 million Uyghur people still live in xinjiang, seems to be fine with sending their kids to school?

The reason why China has boarding schools is people live far from the school. Often in less populated locations like xinjiang have to travel for hours for a school that is properly funded and staffed. But it's parents decision to have their kids to stay at the school or not. I went to boarding school myself. My parents pick me up on weekends. I actually loved my time at boarding school, it was great to get away from my parents and hang out with friends all day.

And reading through the article, many questionable lines jump out.

"Teachers came by for a mandatory bed inspection before the children could line up for breakfast, usually corn or rice porridge.", Not even Chinese prisons serve this stuff as punishment. Who would be willingly do this to kids even if this was prescribed by government? The people running the schools are humans too. You think that hundreds of thousands of school staff will do this to kids? shave their heads, commit the other physical and mental abuses at kids mentioned in this article? Only a sick, psychotic, out right crazy person would do that. I don't know about you, but as a Chinese, in my whole life, the Chinese people I know do have compassion. I can say that when it comes to kids, we do love kids. Sure, Chinese parents and teachers do punish children. But that is because people believe punishment is needed to educate kids, to make children grow up into better person. But deep down and bottom line is, people still adore and love kids, want to protect kids. Hey, regardless of everything else, Chinese people are human. And all humans do have hearts. And all humans are more like each other than their are different.

And now, even the culture of punishing kids are changing. Recently, Chinese government banned all manners of punishment from schools. Teachers caught doing so are being fired. If what is described here is true, the parents can sue the teacher and the school. They will win the suit and even get reimbursements.

"She made the children laghman, Uyghur-style noodles, and Aysu cried. She was served Uyghur food only twice while she was at the state boarding school, but both times older classmates ate it all before she could take a bite." - seems like the article is claiming the school tried to reduce exposure to Uyghur food to rid off kids cultural connection Uyghur. Go to Xinjiang, and you will see Uyghur restaurants everywhere. If the government is trying to ban Uyghur culture and banning food is a way to do that, why would they allow so many Uyghur restaurants running freely? Also, a Uyghur person doesn't need to flee to Turkey to get Uyghur food, they are available everywhere in xinjiang, all run by Uyghur people themselves, freely. Yes, Uyghur people are free to open their restaurants, open businesses, why would they be go to forced labor at factories?

“The children said they were taught in only Mandarin Chinese for six days a week, and students who spoke without permission or spoke Uyghur were hit with rulers” - again, if the schools is mandated by the government to ban and punish kids from speaking mother tongue, why would you see kids and adult alike on the streets walking freely and speak Uyghur?

Also, if the father in the story is on Chinese government's radar, and Chinese government arrested his children, sent them and punished them at state boarding school, physically and mentally punish them, why would Chinese government still allow him and his children to leave the country? So they could go aboard, speak to the media, publicize these "atrocities", and get international sanctions and punishment on China? So the only explanation is that Chinese government didn't specially target them. At worst, the children were treated like any other children. If a lot of children were treated like this in xinjiang, then how do you explain the free-running, Uyghur speaking kids on the streets?

Also, Uyghur people are in all walks of life in China right now. For example, many top actors and actresses are Uyghur, like Dilraba Dilmurat. What are presented in these stories are truly terrible, from treatment of kids, 1 million imprisioned, to so-called forced labor and forced sterilization. I am sure everyone will able to sympathize and everyone will revolt if they see these happening in front of them. But 20 million Uyghur people still live in China today, they seems to be okay with the lives they are living. We don't see massive uprising in xinjiang or exodus of refugees. Doesn't that contradict even a slight bit to the narrative presented?

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has anyone here even written to their senator? Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice a senator has made to their beliefs after receiving a letter? I'm guessing a check would be more persuasive.

My Senator is Dianne Feinstein, whose husband personally created the China-shipping-products pipeline with early purchases of ships, shipping capacity, intermediate companies for low-ish prices, then spent decades carefully lowering the costs, to eventually make billions, and make sure that the assets involved were owned closely to prevent takeover. Maybe I should write her a letter?

> My Senator is Dianne Feinstein, whose husband personally created the China-shipping-products pipeline

Except in the case of vacancies, every US citizen has either 0 (because they are not a citizen of a state despite being a citizen of the U.S.) or 2 (because every state has two, and they are elected at-large not by-district, unlike Representatives) U.S. Senators; if one of yours is Dianne Feinstein, the other is Alex Padilla, whose spouse did not personally create the China-shipping-products pipeline.

You also have a U.S. Representative, as well.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#96
post #84
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read about horrible things that happened in the 1800s and your takeaway is... we should allow such things to happen again today? Can you elaborate a little bit?

> You read about horrible things that happened in the 1800s and your takeaway is... we should allow such things to happen again today? Can you elaborate a little bit? Despite all that, or maybe thanks to having recognized the errors in our ways, we have grown into a democracy that now truly respect cultural differences. Look at free speech here in the US, vs say in Austria or Germany: after WW2, they banned everythin…

No post body was provided.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#97
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we possibly see ourselves as objective judges when our collective history is essentially, from this historic perspective, butchery? What blessed this generation with a wisdom not seen before? What, precisely?

Change. Goddamn, are you serious standing there saying "it's cool, rape and torture them. Our country used to do it a few generations ago." Privileged asshole.

You will never find what you are seeking.

People do as they do.

All the weeping in the world will not make it so.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#98
post #30

Can anyone point to a change or sacrifice they have made because they disagree with Chinas treatment of anyone?

1. I always check the country of origin before buying. I still buy China-made products when there's absolutely no other option, but whenever there's an alternative made anywhere outside China (whether higher priced, or even slightly inferior), I buy that instead. 2. Going to fund the development (since I can't do this myself) of a browser plugin to help people find non-China goods on Amazon easily. Just two features:…

Where can I follow you on the plug-in? I’d like it too. And also a bit of a down side of current browser finger printing is that ability to infer the different kinds of plugins, in which this is quite a political signal

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#99

So many holes in this story It is a fact, today, go to streets of many cities and towns in xinjiang, Kashgar, Urumqi, Aksu, you will see kids running around on the streets, speaking in Ughur, Kazakh. Many Uyghur kids speak Uyghur among themselves. You will see cities signs in both Uyghur and mandarin. If Chinese government really have these "boarding schools" to completely ban minority languages, why would kids still…

We didn't see massive uprisings in Nazi Germany also, and there were some Jewish individuals collaborated with the Nazi regime. Your argument couldn't be less convincing.

Re: Uyghur kids detail abuse at China's boarding schools in Xinjiang

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped eating Chinese food. That'll show 'em! No but seriously -- whether someone pops in with a serious change, or absolutely zero changes, what does that tell us about Uyghur oppression? What are you getting at?

I’m not sure how stop eating Chinese food would help. You seem confuse between the CCP and the normal Chinese folks.

That's a joke, as can be inferred from "That'll show 'em" with an exclamation mark:)
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