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How should net metering affect your electric bill?

climateer.substack.com

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Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#291

Post by hbarka »

pphysch wrote: post #287
hbarka wrote: post #286

The ultimate answer to this is to go self-powered. The sun will never raise its rates, and PV panels+batteries are getting cheaper. Utilities are not admitting that independent power generators contribute to creating a more resilient grid at no cost to ratepayers/full cost to the homeowner.

It's certainly increasing the availability of power but I fail to see how it makes a "more resilient grid". Who is gonna fix a power line that goes down?

A downed power line is minor compared to Hurricane Sandy or the Great Texas Freeze. Who demonstrated resiliency during that time? The ones with Powerwalls and microgrids powered by gas/alternate storage systems kept the lights on in many places. The lesson is that reliance on a centralized grid can quickly turn into a big problem. Distributed and localized energy generation and storage is where the incentives should be placed.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#293

Post by dzhiurgis »

danans wrote: post #251
oogali wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t know what the solution is, but the problems are pretty easy to see. In theory, if you were dealing with one entity, it could be pretty easy. But you are actually dealing with multiple entities: - your utility’s transmission subsidiary - your utility’s generation subsidiary - your applicable regulatory entities - your regional grid operator/planning organization > Well, this is not in the interest of the uti…

> This typically manifests itself to retail customers the form of free Nest thermostats, time of use programs, and subsidized appliance efficiency upgrades (or rebates). > If they could redirect this money to small generators like yourself and have the same impact, they would drop their demand management programs in a heartbeat The catch is that the power from small solar generators isn't as valuable as demand manage…

At some point if not already batteries are cheaper than grid upgrades

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#294

Post by pabs3 »

lillecarl wrote: post #51

In Sweden there are 2 separate charges, one for infrastructure and one for consumption. The infrastructure bill scales with how big your breakers/fuses (English) are while consumption scales with how many KWh you've used. You often have a different infra provider and power provider. For someone living in a condo/apt the infra cost is usually higher than consumption while in houses where heating often is powered by so…

Why is it based on breaker/fuse size? Surely the cost should be based on cost of maintenance over the entire grid over the last year divided by the amount of customers using the grid?

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#295

Post by hedora »

GravitasFailure wrote: post #272
kelnos wrote: post #267

The annoying thing about this is that, if the new California metering rules do end up passing, I will definitely not be installing solar on my roof, because it will end up either costing more in the long run, or the break-even point will be so far out that it's not worth it to me. Now, as the article says (or at least hints at), maybe there are better things we can do as a society to reduce carbon emissions than have…

California requires[0] new construction to have solar now, so while you might not have to worry about installing it you very well may be stuck with a system if you move. I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that increased solar installs will leave less money for grid infrastructure. With the moves away from gas for heating and cooking and the proliferation of electric cars, it seems that demand for residential po…

Yes, but the proposed interconnect rates include a monthly fee if you connect to the grid. The fee is approximately 100% the price of the panels, spread out over 30 years.

I'll hopefully be grandfathered in for 20 years, but after that, I plan to just stop paying my electric bill. I imagine such "cord cutting" for new installs will become more common.

As a middle ground, I might just opt out of net metering, and pay for gross usage and the line connection. That forces PG&E to take the electrons, which at least screws over the natural gas peaker plants they're building out.

However, if current equipment price trends continue it will only make sense to do that out of charity/spite.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#296

Post by hedora »

maxerickson wrote: post #274
kelnos wrote: post #267

The annoying thing about this is that, if the new California metering rules do end up passing, I will definitely not be installing solar on my roof, because it will end up either costing more in the long run, or the break-even point will be so far out that it's not worth it to me. Now, as the article says (or at least hints at), maybe there are better things we can do as a society to reduce carbon emissions than have…

Why not fund the solar panels directly if the goal is to have solar panels? Net metering is a terrible deal for the utility, there's not really anyone that gets a terrible deal if you directly subsidize panels.

If you did that, poor people could afford panels. Not sure if that's a political advantage or disadvantage out here.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#297

Post by caseysoftware »

I bought a giant solar array this fall and finally got it activated last month. The initial way I thought "net metering" would work was:

If we buy & consume 2000kWh but then produce and sell back 2000kWh, then the total bill should be near-zero.

That's not even close.

When we buy power, we pay $0.115/kWh but when we produce excess power, they only buy it at $0.027/kWh.

Therefore, they bill us for $230 (0.115 * 2000) and credit us $54 (0.027 * 2000) so our bill is still ~$176. In order to zero out our bill, we have to sell back 4.25x more than we consume.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#298

Post by josephcsible »

pabs3 wrote: post #292

Probably switching to transparent pricing is the way to go. Calculate the costs of things ($X/year for maintaining transmission lines and other over Y customers = $Z infra fee) and charge separately for each of them.

This is a good idea, but it would never survive in California, because people would complain that it's regressive. Rich households use more electricity than poor households, but the infrastructure maintenance cost for each is approximately equal, so with your proposal, poor households wouldn't get subsidized by rich ones anymore.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#299

Post by sagarm »

caseysoftware wrote: post #297

I bought a giant solar array this fall and finally got it activated last month. The initial way I thought "net metering" would work was: If we buy & consume 2000kWh but then produce and sell back 2000kWh, then the total bill should be near-zero. That's not even close. When we buy power, we pay $0.115/kWh but when we produce excess power, they only buy it at $0.027/kWh. Therefore, they bill us for $230 (0.115 * 2000)…

The article notes that at least in California, infra costs are roughly 75% of real costs so the sounds about right.

Re: How should net metering affect your electric bill?

#300

Post by porknubbins »

caseysoftware wrote: post #297

I bought a giant solar array this fall and finally got it activated last month. The initial way I thought "net metering" would work was: If we buy & consume 2000kWh but then produce and sell back 2000kWh, then the total bill should be near-zero. That's not even close. When we buy power, we pay $0.115/kWh but when we produce excess power, they only buy it at $0.027/kWh. Therefore, they bill us for $230 (0.115 * 2000)…

I didn’t realize it was that bad but kind of makes sense that they are not going to pay you “retail” prices. Another way of looking at it is there is a huge incentive to size your installation for 100%, not just plan to offset some cost of use because you pay a big premium for their power.
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